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Uncontrolled Charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 2:29 am    Sujet du message: Uncontrolled Charge Répondre en citant
A unit of Medium Sword Impetuous (A) is facing down.

It is in complete side edge to side edge contact with an enemy unit of Medium Sword impetuous (B) facing up.

It got there because the enemy unit defeated a friend and followed up in their turn.

A unit of Light Infantry on the same side as B is 2 UD away and facing up - like this


BA

C

How much does it cost for Unit A to conform to the flank of B? 0 or 1 or 3 CP?

Page 43 says that if a unit has any enemy within charge range and it does not charge or move to support a friend in melee any move costs 3 CP.

Both unit B and unit C provoke an uncontrolled charge but A may not charge unit B as they start in contact. So I take it that B is no longer a valid target of an uncontrolled charge. Or a 1 CP controlled one for that matter.

But C is.

So I think B must either charge C (1 CP or uncontrolled) or pay something to conform to the flank of B.

BUT the second bullet on the right hand column of page 51 regarding conforming units still in contact says "Units subject to uncontrolled charge must either conform or charge another enemy. Any other move costs 3 CP"

This implies that the conformation does not cost 3 CP. So is it free and an exemption from the exact wording of page 43?
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 3:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Why can’t A just conform onto the flank of B for free?
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 5:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Kevin,

Because he is subject to uncontrolled charge because of the LI unit C provoking him.

Any move other than a charge or a move to support friends costs 3 CP per page 45. He cannot charge B or support friends so a conformation must cost 3 CP - by the exact letter of the rule.

However the page that talks about conformations like is, page 51 seems to have a specific case exemption to this clause. So I believe this is a case where a specific rule overrides the general case requirement. But the exemption is only strongly implied and not stated explicitly.

Still if that bullet does not mean that, given where it is located, what else can it mean?
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 7:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P.51 right column, bullet 2 is clear and prescriptive in my opinion. Despite being subject to an uncontrolled charge A has the option to conform for free (or....).
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 4:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agree with Zoltan. Page 51 is the more focused exception if you believe the general rule overruled by exceptions theory of rules application.
Note that there is an obvious imprecision in the rule on page 4[5] - If you are 1UD from an El straight ahead (and a provoking target off to the left), you can spontaneously charge for 0 CP.
[The total contact cost can be anywhere from 0 CP to 4CP depending where the commander is; the base cost is 0-2CP.]
Conforming is sometimes treated as a move although I'm not sure if this is consistently true.


Dernière édition par Neep le Jeu Déc 05, 2024 5:46 pm; édité 1 fois
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 5:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
P.51 right column, bullet 2 is clear and prescriptive in my opinion. Despite being subject to an uncontrolled charge A has the option to conform for free (or....).


Correct Zoltan; the text reads
Citation:
Units subject to uncontrolled charge must either conform or charge another enemy. Any other move costs 3 CP.

In this case, Impetuous unit A may either
  • Conform on the flank of B for free (which does not count as a charge), or
  • Charge C for 1CP or
  • move somewhere else for 3CP


Note, unit A may not remain exactly as it is; it must move in some way.
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 7:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Note, unit A may not remain exactly as it is; it must move in some way.


Hi Gavin,

Yes, but which takes precedence - an uncontrolled charge or a free conform? Assume that it belongs to a command with an ordinary commander who is in combat and rolls a 1 for CP. So that it does not have a CP to use to move. (to eliminate the choice to do something else issue)

"something" must happen if you do not pay to move, so if it cannot pay it must do one of the two.

I think that the conform happens during the movement phase, at the end of all paid for movements, and the uncontrolled charge happens after the movements of the corps have been completed (though page 45 just says "at the end of its own corps movement phase) But that is based on a narrow reading of the rules which is always dangerous.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 8:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Surely the sequence is clear in the RAW? Making uncontrolled charges  are ALWAYS the last type of “movement†that occurs (within a corps)? And the uncontrolled charge RAW is explicitly predicated on “if nothing else has happened during the movement phase, and if he relevant UC conditions still obtain, then the unit makes an uncontrolled charge.â€

I’m not seeing any real problem here. Don’t worry, be happy.
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 9:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Steve, this is a tricky one. In some cases you can guarantee you will be able to make an uncontrolled charge to contact. In other cases, because of possible evasion by your opponent, you might not be.
Indeed, bullet 3 on page 51 can be read to imply you must make an ordered or spontaneous charge, or conform, assuming you do not move away. If so, then conformation always takes precedence.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 05, 2024 11:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Steve is correct again. 
All movement must be completed before any ‘uncontrolled’ movement occurs. Conformation occurs as part of the movement phase, specifically as part of each unit or group movement. 

In this case, unit A may conform for free, so does not need a CP to complete it’s movement, conforming on B.

If that option did not exist for some reason and the unit had not moved, you are correct that it would then be potentially subject to an uncontrolled charge. 
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 06, 2024 9:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In my experience “free conformations†are one of the first things players often do within a corps’ movement phase. The free conformations are often gimmes, especially if CP are limited. Do your free stuff first: conformations and spontaneous charges, and then see what’s left to spend your money on. Often; not always.
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