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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 4:30 pm Sujet du message: Wheels of change - redux |
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There is an excellent discussion of wheeling back in June entitled Wheels of change?
Dave Allen raised some concerns about wheeling columns that did not get a lot of attention.
Consider a column of 5 units of Knights in a group.
The first unit wheels until the last element has displaced 3UD. This is a wheel of almost 60 degrees and the first unit has moved about .95 UD. No one has exceeded their movement allowance.
Now since this "counts as" moving .95UD, does anyone think the column can then advance 2.05UD? And, of course , what happens if the Knights are Impetuous?
(I don't have a problem with this, as columns are far more maneuverable in real life than lines. The end results look more like a column "following the leader" than just swinging out 60 degrees. The latter would be a ¼turn, wheel in line, ¼turn and a good deal more difficult in reality.) |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 6:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Za Otlichiye a écrit: | There is an excellent discussion of wheeling back in June entitled Wheels of change?
Dave Allen raised some concerns about wheeling columns that did not get a lot of attention.
Consider a column of 5 units of Knights in a group.
The first unit wheels until the last element has displaced 3UD. This is a wheel of almost 60 degrees and the first unit has moved about .95 UD. No one has exceeded their movement allowance.
Now since this "counts as" moving .95UD, does anyone think the column can then advance 2.05UD? And, of course , what happens if the Knights are Impetuous?
(I don't have a problem with this, as columns are far more maneuverable in real life than lines. The end results look more like a column "following the leader" than just swinging out 60 degrees. The latter would be a ¼turn, wheel in line, ¼turn and a good deal more difficult in reality.) |
Columns (at least those one unit wide) should ‘kink’ where the first unit wheeled as each unit behind follows in the footsteps of the unit in front of it. This more realistic, avoids the teleporting problem at the end of a column and allows columns to snake through gaps in terrain and follow along roads. However, I don’t think this is done in ADLG, perhaps for brevity and simplicity. (DBM had some issues with kinked columns and recoils but I don’t think these would really plague ADLG.)
Dernière édition par KevinD le Mar Nov 02, 2021 6:55 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 6:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Or have they already done 3ud? _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 715
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 7:40 pm Sujet du message: |
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Columns don't kink in ADLG. There are far to many issues dealing with a kinked column. This was the case with both DBM and FoG. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 7:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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Good point, Dickstick. It's the outermost front corner which is arguably the front corner of the last unit...
Maybe it should be the outermost corner of the unit which moved the most. You might have some oddities with irregularly formed groups. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1474
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 9:18 pm Sujet du message: |
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I'm afraid this is yet another obscure, old-school rules lawyer-ey semantic point which becomes effectively moot the minute you start engaging in actual real-world gameplay.
You very, very rarely see DBM (or MM)-style "columns in ADLG games at all, and it's even more vanishingly rare to see them doing anything other than being used to redeploy a handful of cavalry or LH behind your lines, or to make a bee line for the enemy baggage, in each case only for a turn or so of pretty direct straight-line movement. The rules don't therefore need to go into enormous detail for something which simply isn't important
The table size/troop density/movement allowances/expansion mechanism equation is very different in ADLG to DBM/MM, all of which means as soon as you start playing actual games you'll very soon find that trying to be a smart-ass clever-clogs with columns is an utterly fruitless exercise. _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 11:35 pm Sujet du message: |
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madaxeman a écrit: | I'm afraid this is yet another obscure, old-school rules lawyer-ey semantic point which becomes effectively moot the minute you start engaging in actual real-world gameplay.
You very, very rarely see DBM (or MM)-style "columns in ADLG games at all, and it's even more vanishingly rare to see them doing anything other than being used to redeploy a handful of cavalry or LH behind your lines, or to make a bee line for the enemy baggage, in each case only for a turn or so of pretty direct straight-line movement. The rules don't therefore need to go into enormous detail for something which simply isn't important
The table size/troop density/movement allowances/expansion mechanism equation is very different in ADLG to DBM/MM, all of which means as soon as you start playing actual games you'll very soon find that trying to be a smart-ass clever-clogs with columns is an utterly fruitless exercise. |
I liked the pre-battle maneuvering, scouting and feints in DBM. Admittedly this was really only historically valid for some armies, many many others just lined up on the day of battle in parallel lines and trudged forward. This phase could however take a while and delay getting to the main event, and was only a thing in some battles but wildly out of context in others.
Part of the weakness (but also a strength) of Barker’s rules (6th, 7th, DBM) was trying to have a set of rules that covered everything - 4,500 years, formal battles, ambushes on a marching column, night assaults, breaking off at night and resuming the next day, siege reliefs, naval support, steppe nomads fluid actions, Hoplite or Dark Age scrums, etc. Given the ambition of this it’s surprising how well it did this as a universal set of ancients rules, but of course it inevitably missed the particulars of many places and times by introducing anachronistic considerations into their battles. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mer Nov 03, 2021 4:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Thanks MadAxe, great to have an experienced perspective. I guess there is no need to play it any way other than it's written. Last element displaces ~3 UD and counts as moving ~1 UD. |
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