Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
3 horse Assyrian Chariots - depiction
Page 1 sur 1
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Miniatures and painting
Auteur Message
Janos Hunyadi
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 21 Oct 2016
Messages: 78
MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 18, 2018 10:59 pm    Sujet du message: 3 horse Assyrian Chariots - depiction Répondre en citant
Question regrading the 3 horse heavy chariot in the Army lists, is this a 2 horse heavy chariot with an Pethelle outrider accompanying the chariot ?
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
Messages: 5197
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 19, 2018 10:19 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Actually, there was not 3 horses chariots. It's not possible in terms of coupling and balance. Probably, the third horse was a sort of "shield" or present to replace one of the two horses coupled. He was never coupled but only tied and easily untied. He was only present on right side, and chariots are more vulnérable when they turn. So, for shooting on the left, they are manoeuvring by left.
Maybe, some times, 3 horses chariot are depicted 4 horses chariot return of campaign ...

I hope my poor english is clear ... Confused

So, you can put a third horse not coupling with the 2 others.
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Janos Hunyadi
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 21 Oct 2016
Messages: 78
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 19, 2018 8:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:
Actually, there was not 3 horses chariots. It's not possible in terms of coupling and balance. Probably, the third horse was a sort of "shield" or present to replace one of the two horses coupled. He was never coupled but only tied and easily untied. He was only present on right side, and chariots are more vulnérable when they turn. So, for shooting on the left, they are manoeuvring by left.
Maybe, some times, 3 horses chariot are depicted 4 horses chariot return of campaign ...

I hope my poor english is clear ... Confused

So, you can put a third horse not coupling with the 2 others.


I am tempted just to go for 4 horse chariots, I cannot see a third horse being used effectively tactically, loose tethered or otherwise.

If it was on the yoke, all I see is the chariot going around in circles Very Happy
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 443
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 02, 2019 8:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
After visiting the British Museum's Assurbanipal exhibition I wandered through their Nineveh room.

It was striking that most of the non-royal chariots had three horses. No matter how you look at them it's difficult to assume there's another horse hidden in there somewhere.

Then I got lost on the way out and came across an image of Napoleon riding in a Russian Troika (three horsed sleigh). This seems to have been a very effective mode of transport (up to 30mph) so I got to thinking if the Russians could harness three horses to a sleigh why couldn't the Assyrians manage it with a chariot?

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
Messages: 5197
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Dim Mar 03, 2019 4:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There's lot of difference between travelling and make war! The war chariots means lot of maniability and equilibre. It's not possible with 3 horses.
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 443
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Dim Mar 03, 2019 10:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You're making assumptions about the manoeuvrability requirements of chariots and troika which I don't think bear examination.

Chariots weren't light cavalry - they were shock troops so wouldn't have been expected to make frequent turns and changes of direction.

Troika on the other hand were fast transport and as such expected to follow turns in the road without crashing.

Ultimately, you're not arguing with me. Assyrian chariots are depicted with three horses. We shouldn't disbelieve their evidence just because we can't figure out how they did it.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 3303
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 04, 2019 7:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Bellinconnux knows many about horse riding, chariotry and all things about.
according so, i should agree a expert opinion instead off a old propaganda picture...
ie all modern reconstitutions of chariots prove chariotry probably wasn't chock troops.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 443
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 20, 2019 12:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Several things there.

First, these are wall panels from the inside of royal palaces and as such not propaganda, but decoration for consumption by the elite who would, presumably, have known how chariots were driven.

Second, they are from an artistic tradition we don't fully understand so it's possible there was a convention that showing three horses was enough to depict four. However, that doesn't mean we can rule out the possibility of three horse chariots being represented accurately.

Third, the experts on this are the people who commissioned, designed and sculpted these panels. We shouldn't dismiss primary evidence just because it's inconvenient.

Fourth, heavy chariots are treated as shock troops in the rules. Are you saying that's completely wrong?

Finally, for wargaming purposes this used to matter in the days when each chariot horse and crew member got a factor to fight with (up to WRG 6th Edition). Nowadays chariots are treated differently and it's simpler as Janos said to stick to 2 or 4 horse chariots.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
Messages: 5197
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 22, 2019 10:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree, this type of chariots are shock troop. All along the Human History, shock cavalry rarely contact cause horses refuse to hurt themself. Cavalry charges are a matter of psychogie. If target retrait or move forback, shock cavalry run and succefully shock. If the target stand the position (specialy infatery), so the cavalry turn back to rally and come again. So, shock cavalry need to be very manoeuvrable.

After all, Egyptian depictions shows only side face of people no ? Laughing Laughing Laughing
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 3303
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 22, 2019 12:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:


After all, Egyptian depictions shows only side face of people no ? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Absolutly!This prove that egyptiens look like humain, but with neck turned 90 degree around trunck axis. It' one of proofs egyptians was aliens!
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 443
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 22, 2019 7:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:
I agree, this type of chariots are shock troop. All along the Human History, shock cavalry rarely contact cause horses refuse to hurt themself.

I notice from recent news coverage that French police don't seem to have cavalry. Shocked

Just saying Wink
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Miniatures and painting
Page 1 sur 1
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum