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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Mar Oct 25, 2022 8:15 am Sujet du message: |
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SteveR a écrit: | Since we are plumbing the issue...
Page 78 says that all units must be deployed in command unless they are in ambush.
Page 77 says that a commander who is not the CinC may be included in an ambush.
So if a commander is included in the ambush does the rest of his command have to deploy such that they are in command?
If yes, given that we do not necessarily know exactly where he will be placed on the table do we have to remember where all of his command started or should they deploy within command distance of the marker? |
Yes, and so when you reveal your ambush, the general must be placed where he could command his own troop when they were deployed.
In this unseen case, just place a marker before moving troops which are not in ambush. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 291
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 1:14 am Sujet du message: |
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Hi Lionel,
Are you sure?
It seems a bit fiddly to mark the position of multiple units at the beginning of the game in order to make sure that the Commander was in command distance when he (or she) is placed.
And what happens when the place the player plans to place the commander becomes unavailable due to subsequent enemy movement? After all one cannot impose a retroactive CP penalty turns later.
There are simpler solutions but of course my objection sounds like when King Alfonso X of Castile had Ptolomy's astronomical theory explained to him. At that time each planet needed between 40 and 60 epicycles superimposed on each other in order to explain the motion of the planets in the sky to the limits of observational accuracy. Supposedly he said that if had been present at creation he might have offered the creator some excellent advice on simplification. You may very well be right. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 10:43 am Sujet du message: |
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Don't forget, Steve, questions are generaly about cases which never occurs.... _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 291
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 3:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi Lionel,
Yes, hypothetical edge cases often don't matter.
However your answer indicates that ANY time a commander is placed in ambush that the beginning position of other units in his command not part of the ambush should be marked to ensure compliance.
And that is not all that rare - my opponent had a commander in ambush when I played in Lisbon and we did not mark anything.
I see an issue with marking and find it fiddly. It still might be the rule despite my discomfort however. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 5:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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SteveR a écrit: | Hi Lionel,
Yes, hypothetical edge cases often don't matter.
However your answer indicates that ANY time a commander is placed in ambush that the beginning position of other units in his command not part of the ambush should be marked to ensure compliance.
And that is not all that rare - my opponent had a commander in ambush when I played in Lisbon and we did not mark anything.
I see an issue with marking and find it fiddly. It still might be the rule despite my discomfort however. |
You, british people, don't mark anything. When i play in UK, i can see there's no deploiement map with ambushes checking, flankmarch and so on.
We did like this in france, and after seen some players with always perfect deploiement, we start control the map just to see that some of them was cheating. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 7:55 pm Sujet du message: |
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Arguably, it is impossible to deploy in command range when the commander is not placed, because command range is measured from base to base and commander's base isn't on table. As there are rules for out of command units, you could interpret the "unless in ambush" to apply to either the unit or the commander. Assuming no one comes up with an effective strategy to put the commander in ambush and deploy the corps around the extremes of the deployment box, that is. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 27, 2022 10:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | SteveR a écrit: | Hi Lionel,
Yes, hypothetical edge cases often don't matter.
However your answer indicates that ANY time a commander is placed in ambush that the beginning position of other units in his command not part of the ambush should be marked to ensure compliance.
And that is not all that rare - my opponent had a commander in ambush when I played in Lisbon and we did not mark anything.
I see an issue with marking and find it fiddly. It still might be the rule despite my discomfort however. |
You, british people, don't mark anything. When i play in UK, i can see there's no deploiement map with ambushes checking, flankmarch and so on.
We did like this in france, and after seen some players with always perfect deploiement, we start control the map just to see that some of them was cheating. |
I always use the back of my army list . Used separate map sheet once in France 2017 then there after I saw them no more. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Ven Oct 28, 2022 2:30 am Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | SteveR a écrit: | Hi Lionel,
I see an issue with marking and find it fiddly. It still might be the rule despite my discomfort however. |
You, british people, don't mark anything. |
Lionel,
its far worse. He is from Michigan. And his idea of haute Cuisine is Taco Bell. He is a complete barbarian. |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 291
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Posté le: Ven Oct 28, 2022 5:43 am Sujet du message: |
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We had a French Graduate Student at the University of Michigan play with our local group some years ago. I gave him a ride to the games and always stopped at Taco Bell. After the first visit he took along his own food. Some people just can't appreciate delicious local ethnic meals.
I don't see marking deployments on paper as fixing the problem. Precise deployment is not required by page 78 - only the relative position of each command's deployment zone. Maps would not be accurate enough to show exact locations anyway sufficient to ensure compliance.
To my mind the fix is to either allow for symmetry - the ambush need not be withing command distance of the commander, and if the commander is in ambush other troops are not restricted to this distance either. But then pay the out of command CP cost to move.
Or require deployment within command distance of the ambush marker.
Leaving markers on the table to show where troops started seems kind of fussy to me but if that is the intent so be it. |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 501
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Ven Oct 28, 2022 6:10 am Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: |
You, british people, don't mark anything. When i play in UK, i can see there's no deploiement map with ambushes checking, flankmarch and so on.
We did like this in france, and after seen some players with always perfect deploiement, we start control the map just to see that some of them was cheating. |
Back in the 1990s I became aware of one player who used to do multiple deployment maps. Left flank march in left pocket, right flank march in right pocket etc. Glad to say he no longer plays.
Ps this was not in the UK, but whenever I umpired / organised bigger events previously I used the French approach of checking deployment maps near the start and actively watching some games. Of course this is only reasonable if everyone takes a turn since you cannot umpire so actively and play yourself. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Ven Oct 28, 2022 3:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hazelbark a écrit: | lionelrus a écrit: | SteveR a écrit: | Hi Lionel,
I see an issue with marking and find it fiddly. It still might be the rule despite my discomfort however. |
You, british people, don't mark anything. |
Lionel,
its far worse. He is from Michigan. And his idea of haute Cuisine is Taco Bell. He is a complete barbarian. |
Michigan and others places where bad-dressed men chew english are not English colonies? _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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