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Using Cards instead of dice
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ethan
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Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 21, 2020 6:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Since this thread has been resurrected...

It is worth pointing out that in many ways it is not "did I get the same number of 6s as 1s in the game" that really matters. What really matters is when you get them.

If your main strike corp only throws 1s for command points in the game and your tiny little 4 unit flank corp only throws 6s you rolled the same number of 6s and 1s, but you are still unlucky and will probably lose. Further examples of this left as an exercise for the reader.
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Ramses II
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 22, 2020 10:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am not sure that “card counting” is as big a problem as people present. This implies making a decision based on the player’s estimate of the likelihood of a favourable or unfavourable card appearing. In Blackjack for example, do you twist or stick - a single decision event. 

When using cards in AdlG there is also a “rule” that the player must process all shooting and melees in sequence from one side of the battlefield to the other,  which removes the capacity to favour particular combats. 

And reshuffling occurs quite frequently because in most games players will exhaust and then shuffle their decks at least three times. 
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 22, 2020 11:06 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Since this thread has been resurrected...

It is worth pointing out that in many ways it is not "did I get the same number of 6s as 1s in the game" that really matters. What really matters is when you get them.

If your main strike corp only throws 1s for command points in the game and your tiny little 4 unit flank corp only throws 6s you rolled the same number of 6s and 1s, but you are still unlucky and will probably lose. Further examples of this left as an exercise for the reader.

Using cards instead of dice does not avoid “bad luck” as described and you can still suffer or benefit from 6:1 rolls. As such, this does not detract from needing skill to play the game better than an opponent. 

The main reason for using cards in this regard is that players will have equal fortunes as far as ‘randomised’ luck is concerned, across all numbers not just the extremes,  though there are other benefits as well. 
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 22, 2020 1:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It is possible it will actually increase extreme swings given the varying importance of different rolls as once you had "used up a six" on something not important your chance of getting a six on something important went down...
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 22, 2020 3:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
It is possible it will actually increase extreme swings given the varying importance of different rolls as once you had "used up a six" on something not important your chance of getting a six on something important went down...
Actually the biggest complaint so far has been from players who could no longer blame their “bad luck” on poor dice, followed by complaints that they missed the tension and drama attendant on the dice roll. LoL

However I am not so sure about the assertions here either. The statisticians among us will point out that if you have drawn four cards of a particular number half way through the deck (ie 18 cards from 36), then there is a reduced chance that the 19th card will have this value (it is 1/9) and if drawn, the 20th card has a 1/17 chance of being the last card of that value. 

But you have to remember that both sides have the same benefits and penalties in their decks, and a 2:1 result is just as good as a 6:5. Furthermore, over a 7 turn game the chances of needing a particular in-game result that requires a particular number to be thrown / drawn at that particular point in play against an equally unpredictable opposing deck becomes much harder to quantify or predict, especially as the decks get reshuffled at least twice and typically three times. 

Also, this discussion ignores other benefits of the mechanism;
  • using cards is proven to be faster than dice,
  • cards are not as easily nudged / displaced as dice,
  • present and past ‘rolls’ can easily be reviewed to correct errors,
  • cards are generally much easier to see at a distance across the table
  • using cards allows players to test lists under ‘balanced’ conditions.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 22, 2020 4:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:


Also, this discussion ignores other benefits of the mechanism;
  • using cards is proven to be faster than dice,
  • cards are not as easily nudged / displaced as dice,
  • present and past ‘rolls’ can easily be reviewed to correct errors,
  • cards are generally much easier to see at a distance across the table
  • using cards allows players to test lists under ‘balanced’ conditions.


I think "fast" depends entirely on players. I have had opponents who will not roll the die until they see what I have rolled. This behavior won't change.
I don't find players nudging dice. They pick them up. Will people stop picking up cards that they may perceive as cluttering a board.
I agree past cards will be easier to audit. I find this almost never a problem with dice.
Cards can indeed be easier to read at a distance.

None of this is remarkably different. I can also see a worn card that a player knows is a 6 next in the deck. So they fight an important battle. That's called marked cards, but I have seen people note this is a way they don't think is wrong. (even though it is)

Counting cards. So players will start to note how many of their good or bad or all cards have been used and pick the order of battle to try to influence the odds. Will there be a rule against counting?

Mostly this is just different. I don't find it appreciably better or worse.
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muz177
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 21 Jan 2018
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 05, 2020 8:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Players often cite trhat the outcome of a melee etc is too dependent upon the roll of the dice. Basic factors are typically 1 or 2, but the outcome of the dice roll can vary the final by up to plus or minus 5.

Here is a suggestion that troops of Ordinary quality use an average die (dice), sometimes called a D5 (2,3,3,4,4,5), in place of the current D6 die (1,2,3,4,5,6,).

Currently, using D6 dice for all troops, the following outcomes are achieved:

Ordinary v’s Ordinary

Mean = 0
Standard deviation = 2.42

Elite v’s Ordinary

Mean = +0.5
Standard deviation = 2.20

Mediocre v’s Ordinary

Mean = -0.5
Standard deviation = 2.20



Using a D5 die for ordinary quality troops, and a D6 die for elite and mediocre troops, the following outcomes are achieved:

Ordinary v’s Ordinary

Mean = 0
Standard deviation = 1.35

Elite v’s Ordinary

Mean = +0.5
Standard deviation = 1.68

Mediocre v’s Ordinary

Mean = -0.5
Standard deviation = 1.68

So the “mean” (or average) result remains unchanged, but the standard deviation is substantially reduced. The standard deviation reflects the amount of variation or dispersion of the results, with 68% of the outcomes being within one standard deviation of the mean for a normal data set.

Easy to implement and reduces some of the dice swing whilst retaining the unpredicability.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 05, 2020 2:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Average dice (D5) are already mentioned in the Optional Rules on p76. 

The pros and cons have been discussed at length in the past elsewhere on the forum. 
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muz177
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 05, 2020 11:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This proposal is using average dice for average (ordinary) troops, whose performance would be considered to be usually the same, and the more variable 6 sided dice for the extra good/bad tropps (elite or mediocre) whose performance should be more skewed that way.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 06, 2020 10:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
muz177 a écrit:
Players often cite trhat the outcome of a melee etc is too dependent upon the roll of the dice. Basic factors are typically 1 or 2, but the outcome of the dice roll can vary the final by up to plus or minus 5.

.


Yes, and all the difficulties of the game are in getting better factors by overlaps, flank charge, softening opponent by skirmishers shooting, catching LI in the open and so on. according to my (long) experience, there two categories of player who complains about dices.
.
The great competitors: they had spend more and more time in designing THE plan to obtain victory and they lost a tournament with a damned 6/1.

The "medium player" : he only thinks about face to face fighting. As you say, the combat factor rarely exceeds 2, the game is almost only a dice gaming.

El Kreator had balanced the game to give a chance to all player, and i once win again a great master with dice. I also get 5 defeats in five game in a tournament with dices, too. But don't forget a thing: when someone loses by 6/1, another one wins by 6/1. Everybody remenbers when he lost, but rarely when he had winned.

As Ramses says, the subject periodicaly come back in the forum, this must be the 6th in 12 years....

A funny joke to ending: after a football game in champions league, 6/1 was nicknamed "a PSG" by some french players...
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 06, 2020 9:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:


A funny joke to ending: after a football game in champions league, 6/1 was nicknamed "a PSG" by some french players...


Quote of the year.
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