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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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 Posté le: Mar Avr 04, 2023 8:40 pm Sujet du message: Conforming into destruction? |
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In a recent game, we had a situation where a unit of Samurai Medium swordsmen bow was hit in its flank (by a unit of HC bow, elite) and its rear (by a damaged Medium swordsman, bow elite) simultaneously, whilst having no enemy unit fighting on its front edge.
As it had no enemy unit fighting to its own front it did not drop a Disorder on impact, but fought at '0' for being hit in flank/rear.
The attacking player chose the HC as the primary attacking unit, supported by the MF attacking the enemy rear.
At the end of the attackers round of combat, the defending Samurai Medium swordsmen, bow had received 2 disorders.
At the start of its own turn, it is forced to turn to face the attacking enemy HC bow. At this point it has a heavy unit fighting on its front edge (the HC) and the other enemy unit (Medium swordsmen, bow, elite) on its flank.
Were we correct that, as per page 61 - Special Cases - first bullet point, the Samurai that is forced to turn does not automatically drop an additional disorder (which would destroy it)?
However, it does however continue to fight as still being flanked.
Many thanks
Mark |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Avr 04, 2023 8:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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You was wrong in one point: a unit attacked by flank and rear suffers one disorder.
When she conforms, she doesn't suffer another disorder.
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Neep
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 132
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:13 am Sujet du message: |
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It is possible, although very unlikely, that by happenstance an element struck on the flank/rear would be forced to conform into a multiple attack. While the multiple attacks can happen during "conformance", I suspect that it intended to mean when you conform into the target, not when the target is forced to conform.  [From further discussion, it looks like the Special cases absolves the unit from loss here.]
It does bring up the unresolved question of whether conformance to flank/rear attack is "involuntary" and therefore rally is permitted.
Dernière édition par Neep le Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:56 pm; édité 1 fois |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 287
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:35 am Sujet du message: |
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The disorder when contacted is the first bullet on page 61. One attacking unit makes contact and at that point the Medium Swordsman is in melee. So that when the second unit contacts it it takes a disorder.
One other minor point, the attacking player did not get to choose which unit to be the main unit in the melee.
Page 60 specifies that when a unit is contacted only on the flank and or rear it is the first to Unit contact that is considered to be the main unit.
Now, the attacker usually gets to choose which one to move first so in that sense he can choose. But he cannot pick from the two units which he wants - it is determined by the order of contact |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 11:11 am Sujet du message: |
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| lionelrus a écrit: | You was wrong in one point: a unit attacked by flank and rear suffers one disorder.
When she conforms, she doesn't suffer another disorder. |
Yes - that's not what I meant - it would only get the disorder had it also been fighting another enemy to its front, if hit in the flank or rear by a 'heavy' enemy unit. |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 11:38 am Sujet du message: |
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| SteveR a écrit: | The disorder when contacted is the first bullet on page 61. One attacking unit makes contact and at that point the Medium Swordsman is in melee. So that when the second unit contacts it it takes a disorder.
> No - because at this point it is not fighting any enemy units to its front. Which is the prerequisite to cause the attacked unit to gain a cohesion point loss.
One other minor point, the attacking player did not get to choose which unit to be the main unit in the melee.
Page 60 specifies that when a unit is contacted only on the flank and or rear it is the first to Unit contact that is considered to be the main unit.
> yes - that was the enemy HC - but in reality it would have made no difference as conforming to face either the flank or rear attack would immediately cause the defending unit to immediately receive another cohesion point loss - as it is now fighting an enemy unit to its front as well as its flank - and that would destroy it.
Now, the attacker usually gets to choose which one to move first so in that sense he can choose. But he cannot pick from the two units which he wants - it is determined by the order of contact
> I agree - that was badly worded on my part - the HC charged 1st and the enemy MF charged 2nd - so the HC was the primary attacker.
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See in-line comments above in the quote - thank you
I think I have not explained myself very well.
Unit A - is hit in both the flank and rear simultaneously by 2 separate enemy units.
It has no cohesion point losses on it at that time and does not suffer a cohesion point loss for being hit in the flank or rear as it is not fighting an enemy to its front base edge (Page 61 Multiple Attacks).
It does not have to turn (conform) to face its primary attacker (in this case the HC) until the start of its own turn (NB: if it was destroyed in the initial combat, it would turn to face its primary attacker and its path of rout would be away from that primary attacker at the end of the attacking players turn - however it did not rout - but just received 2 cohesion point losses in the initial melee out of its total of 3 cohesion points).
Next turn - which is the damaged units turn - it is required to conform to face its primary attacker - the HC.
As this would put it in a position where it was now fighting an enemy unit to its front (the HC) and to its flank (the enemy MF - which had previously been fighting its rear) - it would ordinarily gain another cohesion point loss - and that would destroy it (as being MF it only has 3 lives).
However ... Page 61 - Special Cases - first bullet point states: If a unit moves to a position where there is an enemy on its flank or on its rear it does not lose a cohesion point, but fights as being attacked in the flank (see page 63) Our reading of this was that the damaged MF whilst forced to turn to face its attacker did not gain another cohesion point loss that would have automatically caused it to rout.
I have been in a similar situation previously - in a UK competition - where a unit was forced to conform into a situation where it had an enemy unit fighting to its front and to its flank, and it was ruled that my unit did not take a cohesion loss, but it fought as if it was flanked. But that was in v.3 - and we were wondering whether that also applied in v.4 and if our interpretation of P61 Special Cases was actually correct.
Hopefully that makes sense?
Thanks
Mark  |
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Brave Coeur
Tribun
Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2011
Messages: 773
Localisation: Strasbourg/Paris
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 11:50 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | ...
I think I have not explained myself very well.
Unit A - is hit in both the flank and rear simultaneously by 2 separate enemy units.
It has no cohesion point losses on it at that time and does not suffer a cohesion point loss for being hit in the flank or rear as it is not fighting an enemy to its front base edge (Page 61 Multiple Attacks). ...
Thanks
Mark |
Hello Mark,
for that point I will check this evening the FRENCH rule book, because so far, I am very surprised of your assessment above.
Brave Coeur (JM)
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 11:56 am Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | It is possible, although very unlikely, that by happenstance an element struck on the flank/rear would be forced to conform into a multiple attack. While the multiple attacks can happen during "conformance", I suspect that it intended to mean when you conform into the target, not when the target is forced to conform.
It does bring up the unresolved question of whether conformance to flank/rear attack is "involuntary" and therefore rally is permitted. |
In this situation - one that it is all too possible to happen quite often - the MF being attacked has no opponent to its front face - only its flank & rear. So no cohesion loss, but it fights at a '0' factor.
As conformation happens at the start of the next turn, the unit is 'forced' to conform into a position that will automatically destroy it - it appears to have no choice in that matter.
However Page 61: Special Circumstances appears to negate this, as it states that if the unit is forced to conform into a flank attack (& the rear attacking MF now becomes a flank attack) the conforming unit does not receive a cohesion loss (and so it does not in-effect destroy itself).
If all that makes sense!!!!
 |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: |
See in-line comments above in the quote - thank you
I think I have not explained myself very well.
Unit A - is hit in both the flank and rear simultaneously by 2 separate enemy units.
It has no cohesion point losses on it at that time and does not suffer a cohesion point loss for being hit in the flank or rear as it is not fighting an enemy to its front base edge (Page 61 Multiple Attacks).
It does not have to turn (conform) to face its primary attacker (in this case the HC) until the start of its own turn (NB: if it was destroyed in the initial combat, it would turn to face its primary attacker and its path of rout would be away from that primary attacker at the end of the attacking players turn - however it did not rout - but just received 2 cohesion point losses in the initial melee out of its total of 3 cohesion points).
Next turn - which is the damaged units turn - it is required to conform to face its primary attacker - the HC.
As this would put it in a position where it was now fighting an enemy unit to its front (the HC) and to its flank (the enemy MF - which had previously been fighting its rear) - it would ordinarily gain another cohesion point loss - and that would destroy it (as being MF it only has 3 lives).
However ... Page 61 - Special Cases - first bullet point states: If a unit moves to a position where there is an enemy on its flank or on its rear it does not lose a cohesion point, but fights as being attacked in the flank (see page 63) Our reading of this was that the damaged MF whilst forced to turn to face its attacker did not gain another cohesion point loss that would have automatically caused it to rout.
I have been in a similar situation previously - in a UK competition - where a unit was forced to conform into a situation where it had an enemy unit fighting to its front and to its flank, and it was ruled that my unit did not take a cohesion loss, but it fought as if it was flanked. But that was in v.3 - and we were wondering whether that also applied in v.4 and if our interpretation of P61 Special Cases was actually correct.
Hopefully that makes sense?
Thanks
Mark |
Mark,
you have substantially misunderstood the rule on page 61.
Firstly, it isn't possible for the attacking units to arrive simultaneously. One must arrive first.
Secondly, the fourth bullet point on page 61 deals specifically with the situation you describe - two flank/rear attacks in the same phase results in a cohesion loss.
Thirdly, the special case you refer to covers a situation where a unit moves into melee in a situation where it has an enemy unit to its front and another on its rear or flank. This is intended to cover cases resulting from a charge or a conform, but can equally be applied to the case you describe.
So, in answer to your question:
1. The initial decision to not have a cohesion drop was wrong.
2. Had the flanked unit survived the flank attack it would not have to take a further cohesion drop when it conformed at the end of the melee. Partly because that is what the Special Case says, but mainly because none of the rest of the rule applies - ie there is no attack by a new enemy (see b.p.1 of the main rule).
Dave
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Dernière édition par daveallen le Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:30 pm; édité 2 fois |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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Incidentally, I had exactly the situation envisaged in the Special Case occur at the weekend:
My included Samurai general in MSwd/Bw unit was hit in flank and rear and perished on the spot. Next turn I rolled a 2 for his command so the unit that had been adjacent and giving support now had to conform into the gap and gloriously follow their commander's fine example.
Dave
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Brave Coeur a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: | ...
I think I have not explained myself very well.
Unit A - is hit in both the flank and rear simultaneously by 2 separate enemy units.
It has no cohesion point losses on it at that time and does not suffer a cohesion point loss for being hit in the flank or rear as it is not fighting an enemy to its front base edge (Page 61 Multiple Attacks). ...
Thanks
Mark |
Hello Mark,
for that point I will check this evening the FRENCH rule book, because so far, I am very surprised of your assessment above.
Brave Coeur (JM) |
Thank you - that would be very helpful.
Page 61 - Multiple Attacks - 1st bullet point (in the English edition) states:
"When a unit already in melee, or in melee support, is attacked by a new enemy (other than light troops, artillery or WWG) on its flank or rear edge, it immediately loses one cohesion point."
The key wording here is the bit I have underlined in bold above. The Samurai MF being attacked was not already in melee - it was (in effect) hit simultaneously in the flank (by the HC) and the rear (by the enemy MF). So by my reading it did not lose a cohesion point initially. Just the same as if it had been hit in the rear or either flank by only one unit.
Now if the intention of the rules is that a unit hit in either both flanks &/or rear, whilst not fighting an enemy unit to its front will drop a cohesion point - that is is fine - but that doesn't appear to be what is being said.
Also - if a unit fighting an enemy units flank (in melee support) is hit in the flank or rear by a separate enemy unit - does it also immediately drop a cohesion point? My understanding has previously been that it doesnt - as it is not the primary attacker - but again I am very happy to be told I am wrong (on both accounts)
Many thanks
Mark |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: |
Thank you - that would be very helpful.
Page 61 - Multiple Attacks - 1st bullet point (in the English edition) states:
"When a unit already in melee, or in melee support, is attacked by a new enemy (other than light troops, artillery or WWG) on its flank or rear edge, it immediately loses one cohesion point."
The key wording here is the bit I have underlined in bold above. The Samurai MF being attacked was not already in melee - it was (in effect) hit simultaneously in the flank (by the HC) and the rear (by the enemy MF). So by my reading it did not lose a cohesion point initially. Just the same as if it had been hit in the rear or either flank by only one unit.
Now if the intention of the rules is that a unit hit in either both flanks &/or rear, whilst not fighting an enemy unit to its front will drop a cohesion point - that is is fine - but that doesn't appear to be what is being said.
Also - if a unit fighting an enemy units flank (in melee support) is hit in the flank or rear by a separate enemy unit - does it also immediately drop a cohesion point? My understanding has previously been that it doesnt - as it is not the primary attacker - but again I am very happy to be told I am wrong (on both accounts)
Many thanks
Mark |
Mark,
you're actually citing the rule that says your understanding is wrong. (the bold part I have emphasised)
Dave
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Putting the ink into incompetence
Dernière édition par daveallen le Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:50 pm; édité 1 fois |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 12:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | Now if the intention of the rules is that a unit hit in either both flanks &/or rear, whilst not fighting an enemy unit to its front will drop a cohesion point - that is is fine - but that doesn't appear to be what is being said.
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No, that is because the 4th bullet point deals with this situation:
| Citation: | Page 61 Multiple Attacks bp4
A unit also loses a cohesion point if it is engaged in melee or melee support on multiple sides by multiple enemy in the same phase... |
Dave
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 328
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 2:02 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ok Dave - thanks 
So in effect - if a unit is charged (in the same move or in multiple moves) and hit on any two different sides by enemy units (other than Light Infantry, artillery or WWg) it will automatically drop a cohesion point.
There is no need specifically for it to be fighting to its front at the same time.
Well ... we have been playing that one wrong then.
Good to know how the Special rule works as well.
Many thanks
Mark |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 2:29 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
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