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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1476
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 9:05 pm Sujet du message: Hittite (20) list question |
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Hittite Light Chariots are available as
2-8 "(before 1380BC)"
After 1380BC you can ..
"Replace some Hittite Chariots" (0-
Should this be "replace all Hittite Chariots" after 1380BC ... as the wording in the initial section for LCh suggests they are only available until 1380BC?
Or is the initial description incorrect, and there should be no date restriction on taking Light Chariots in a Hittite army, only a date when you can change some for HCh ?
(This maybe a question for what is written in the French army list!?) _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Ven Jan 27, 2023 12:47 am Sujet du message: |
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I had always thought it was replace some. But now i note the years are mutually exclusive. The year makes the question moot. |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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The wording indicates the first suggestion, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the intention is the second. Because the idea that a Hittite army would have a minimum of zero chariots seems a bit daft to me. _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".
In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".
In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line. |
Maybe it got carried over from the 3rd edition text, similar to the issue with Feudal French Knights before 1085. _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Sam Fév 04, 2023 8:43 am Sujet du message: |
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Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.
I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1476
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Sam Fév 04, 2023 9:32 pm Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".
In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line. |
Aaah! For the next FAQ then… _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 12:10 am Sujet du message: |
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KevinD a écrit: | Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.
I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots. |
high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory. |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 5:50 am Sujet du message: |
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Hazelbark a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.
I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots. |
high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory. |
Probably more like the current amateur wargamer theory. Academia is less concerned about trying to shoehorn things into wargame "light" and "heavy" classifications, but ancients games haven't gotten past the old WRG fixation where if the chariot had more than 2 crew, it had to be heavy.
Also, "chariot runner hitching a ride" only works if you actually have a concrete definition of what a chariot runner is, and most people don't. _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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vexillia
Signifer
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017 Messages: 354
Localisation: Warrington, UK
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Posté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 10:04 am Sujet du message: |
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Wouldn't this be best moved to the "Army List" subforum? _________________ Martin Stephenson |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 7:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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Jhykronos a écrit: | Hazelbark a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.
I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots. |
high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory. |
Probably more like the current amateur wargamer theory. Academia is less concerned about trying to shoehorn things into wargame "light" and "heavy" classifications, but ancients games haven't gotten past the old WRG fixation where if the chariot had more than 2 crew, it had to be heavy.
Also, "chariot runner hitching a ride" only works if you actually have a concrete definition of what a chariot runner is, and most people don't. |
So ignoring light versus heavy. There are academics who argue the chariot runner. Also they define the chariot runner a good bit. I heard this i think on an ancient Mesopotamia podcast between academics. The argument is i think influenced by records not theory. As a side note we have more written words of the "biblical Mesopotamia area" than we do of classical Greece and maybe Rome according to scholars.
The argument is the 3rd man does several support roles to the chariot including replacing wounded horses and being johnny on the sport for general problem support. How much of a combatant is more open. This is maybe characterized as proto-squire or logistics support. |
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 11:45 pm Sujet du message: |
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Thanks Dan, interesting!
I do agree it should move to the Army List sub forum. |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:05 am Sujet du message: |
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Hazelbark a écrit: | So ignoring light versus heavy. There are academics who argue the chariot runner. Also they define the chariot runner a good bit. |
I'm aware of the Tallis and Stillman's use of the term in Armies of the Ancient Near East, and of Robert Drews unique interpretation of it in his own book. Outside of that, if chariot runners were a thing we had a solid grasp on, you would think they might actually appear in someone's army lists anymore. But maybe that's more of a problem on the wargaming side.
Citation: | I heard this i think on an ancient Mesopotamia podcast between academics. The argument is i think influenced by records not theory. |
Then you probably have better sources than I do for it... the only place I ever hear that one is by list authors who don't want the Hittites to have 3-man chariots because they reject the idea of shock chariots (not certain what one has to do with the other, but then we are still fixated on WRG definitions for some reason). And nobody ever wants to cite where they get the idea from.
Citation: | As a side note we have more written words of the "biblical Mesopotamia area" than we do of classical Greece and maybe Rome according to scholars. |
We might, but the Greek and Roman sources are a lot more convenient for gaming purposes, as they will occasionally give you an OOB and a detailed battle narrative.
Citation: | The argument is the 3rd man does several support roles to the chariot including replacing wounded horses and being johnny on the sport for general problem support. How much of a combatant is more open. This is maybe characterized as proto-squire or logistics support. |
I do remember Nigel Tallis once pointing out that the "third rider" was not necessarily a new development at all... earlier pre-Hurrian style chariots were often crewed by 3. And certainly plenty of other states after the Hittite Empire went to the 3-crew vehicles. It had to start somewhere... if not Hatti or Ugarit, then where?
But again, the only reason we even care is because of that old WRG definition. I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway. _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:20 am Sujet du message: |
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“I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway.â€
I agree.
I think a lot of it comes down to how you interpret Kadesh - do you want the Hittite chariots to be radically different in battlefield role from the Egyptian style (or Maryanne style) chariots - as perhaps heavy shock chariots - or were they fundamentally similar to the Egyptian ones? |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 1:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Jhykronos a écrit: |
But again, the only reason we even care is because of that old WRG definition. I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway. |
The academic world cares about this because they do research that has purposes unrelated to gaming. Shocking I know.
Nearly every gaming assumption and its evolution is influenced in part by academic developments. Well and Hollywood-esqe fevered imaginations.
I concur the existence of the runner is a separate issue from whether you think the Chariot is more shock or more missile platform or more transport. I think that is also complicated by the chariot evolution of quite a few cultures and years and in comparison, to rest of the formed military units of that point in time. |
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