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Western European Peasants Revolts (proposed new list)
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 12:46 am    Sujet du message: Western European Peasants Revolts (proposed new list) Répondre en citant
In the cause of completeness, I would like to propose the following new army list to go into the Late Middle Ages, Medieval Europe section.

Western European Peasants Revolts 1358 - 1517
Terrain: Plain, Forest, add Mountain for Bundschuh
Command: +1
Fortifications (wagon fort) @1pt 0-12 (Bundschuh only)
Fortified camp

Revolting Peasants* - Levy impetuous mediocre @ 3pts 10-60
Skirmishers & huntsmen - Light infantry bow @ 4pts 0-6
Dependents etc. - Levy, mediocre @ 3pts 0-4

French Jacquerie (1358)
Civic Militia - HF 1/2 spear, 1/2 crossbow @10pts 0-4
Add pavice @1pt
Brigands - MF swordsmen @6pts 0-4
Brigands - MF spear @7pts
Downgrade to mediocre @-1pt
Brigands must all be same type
Light Infantry crossbows @4pts 0-2

English Jack Cades Rebellion (1381)
Decommissioned soldiers* - Longbow, mediocre @7pts 0-8

German Bundschuh (1439-1517)
Unemployed soldiers* - Pike, mediocre @8pts 3-9 (from 1450 only)
Arquebusiers - Light infantry firearms @ 4pts 0-3
Lesser gentry* - HC impact @ 10pts 0-2
Guns - Light artillery, mediocre @ 5pts 0-2

Cornish Revolt (1497)
Decommissioned soldiers* - Longbow, mediocre @7pts 0-6
Upgrade all Revolting Peasants from mediocre @+1pt All
Guns - Light artillery, mediocre @ 5pts 0-1

I will write up a short description for the list. But in essence the Peasants were often ferocious in combat (although not very effective) as they faced server retribution from those they rebelled against. Adding an element if desperation to their fighting. Often these Peasant forces were quite large c.25,000 in the case of the Jack Cade Rebellion and c.15,000 for the Cornish insurrection. The Bundschuh rebellions erupted spasmodically between the end if the Hussite Wars through to the early reformation. They were the more organised militarily as they had large numbers of returning unemployed soldier bands involved.

Having recently built a People's Crusader army, which I am enjoying playing with, I was encouraged to develop this list.

Many thanks
Mark
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 2:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting.

A few corrections:

MF Mediocre are -2, not -1. It’s then +2 to upgrade to Ordinary.

LMI Longbow Mediocre should be 6 pts, not 7 (unless they also have stakes).

Put a note in what types of armies are allowed. “Armies must be one of X, or Y, or Z or Other and cannot include troops from other Armies.â€

Play balance:

On a play balance note: is 60+ elements feasible to finish a game in 2.5 hours? Maybe make the Levies (mostly) ordinary? Their desperation might warrant this…. You could then allow the Cornish to be 1/2 (or all?) MI Sw Impetuous to keep them better than the others….

Did they (all) really use fortified camps?

Should some sort of limited mounted be available to English or French rebels for lesser gentry or yeomanry or just confiscated farm animals? (*0-2 MC Mediocre @ 5 points?)

Did the English or French use any field fortifications?

Note that even Slave Revolts (w/o Spartacus) gets 2 command points.

What actually happened in field battles they fought in? Did they actually fight any? If they never fought an open battle, then maybe we don’t need a list….
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 10:13 am    Sujet du message: Western European Peasants Revolts (proposed new list) Répondre en citant
All good observations Kevin and points corrections.

Upping the Command to +2 would work. But I will limit the number of commanders that can be integrated into the lesser gentry HC to 1 only. The lesser gentry could be Medium Knights (mediocre) as an alternative.

On the Fortified Camp I agree - only the Germans should have this & only if they don't have the field Fortifications (so I will create a similar note to that of the Muscovites or Pecheneg lists).

On the Field Fortifications I agree, only the Germans & the Cornish should be allowed these, and the Cornish should only have 0-4 (representing the barricades used at Depford that were stormed by Stanley).

All the armies listed fought major battles, or were in a position where a significant battle could have happened.

I am slightly nervous about making the Cornish MF swordsmen impetuous, as it gives them rough terrain capabilities that I am not convinced they had.
I also debated long & hard about making any of the Levy impetuous. But this seems to best reflect the viciously partizan nature of these conflicts.

Adding some mounted troops is, again, an idea to consider. Although there is no historical record indicating these to be part of the armies, other than the lesser gentry/robber Knights types in the German armies.

With regard to gameplay. I fought at Brixham recently with a 40BP Peasants Crusader army & won 1, drew 2, lost 2. I lost to a HYW English & a Samurai.
Admittedly it was my first outing with the army & I would play it slightly differently next time, but those opponents that got stuck in quickly did better.
Making the basic rebels Levy impetuous would certainly reduce the army size. Removing the mediocre status would also be one less thing to have to remember.

I also thought about allowing an Allied contingent from the same list, as there were often very clear divisions of opinion amongst the different rebel contingents.

I will review & revise the list accordingly & repost.

Thankyou
Mark
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ethan
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Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 3:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would make the levy ordinary vice mediocre. There was a general trend in the move to v4 to avoid having the majority/mandatory troop types be mediocre.
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 319
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 6:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Updated thoughts:

Western European Peasants Revolts 1358 - 1517
Terrain: Plain, Forest, add Mountain for Bundschuh
Command: +2

Unlike the Hussite wars or the Swiss wars of independence, where the motivation for armed insurrection was for religious freedom and national autonomy respectively, it was the impact of the Black Death, radical social reforms, growing religious nonconformity, and excessive taxation to fund lengthy wars that triggered a series of broadly unconnected populist armed uprisings and revolts across Western Europe.
Whilst these revolts have been classified as 'peasants' revolts often the bulk of combatants were not from the very poorest in society but were those who owned property and goods, from both the urban as well as rural populations, often from the skilled artizan and trades communities; all of whom had the most to lose from instability, radical change, and higher taxation.
These rebellions were savagely suppressed by the ruling establishment, and as the consequences of armed rebellion were severe, to both  individuals and communities alike, rebels often fought with ferocity, but not very effectively.
The Bundschuh revolts in Germany occurred across a broad geographical area and wide timeline, but each was often unconnected with its predecessors. Only the symbol of revolt, a peasants shoe on a white banner, connected the various uprisings.

Revolting Peasants* - Levy impetuous @ 4pts 10-50
Option to downgrade to mediocre @-1pt up to 1/2

Mounted peasants on looted horses*
Medium cavalry, mediocre @5pts 0-2

Skirmishers & huntsmen - Light infantry bow @ 4pts 0-6

Dependents, etc. - Levy, mediocre @ 3pts 0-4

French Jacquerie (1358)
Civic Militia - HF 1/2 spear, 1/2 crossbow @10pts 0-4
Add pavice @1pt

Brigands - MF swordsmen @6pts 0-4
Brigands - MF spear @ 7pts
Downgrade to mediocre @-2pt All or none
(Brigands must all be the same type)

Light Infantry crossbows @4pts 0-2

English Jack Cades Rebellion (1381)
Decommissioned soldiers* - Longbow, mediocre @6pts 0-8

German Bundschuh (1439-1517)
Unemployed soldiers*
Pike, mediocre @8pts 3-9 (from 1450 only)

Harquebusiers
Light infantry firearms @ 4pts 0-3

Lesser gentry*
HC impact @10pts 0-2
Medium Knights impetuous @ 10pts
(Lesser gentry must all be the same type)

Guns
Light artillery, mediocre @ 5pts 0-2

Fortifications (baggage wagon fort) @1pt 0-12
Fortified camp @ 6pts 0-1

Cornish Revolt (1497)
Decommissioned soldiers and local militia*
Longbow, mediocre @6pts 0-6

Upgrade Revolting Peasants to HF impetuous mediocre as local militia* @6pts up to 1/2

Guns - Light artillery, mediocre @ 5pts 0-1

Fortifications @1pt 0-4

Notes:
This list can be used to create one of the many more generic populist revolt armies, or those of a specifically named rebellion using troop types only available to that revolt or nationality, as outlined above. Forces may not contain units from more than one different nationality or different revolts.

Only one Lesser gentry unit can contain an integrated commander.

Bundschuh can only field Field fortifications or a Fortified Camp, not both.

An Allied contingent from this list may also be taken, but it must be from the same revolt as the main army.

Many thanks for the guidance ethan & KevinD.
Ideally, I'd have liked to have represented the Bundschuh Lesser Gentry as Medium Knights impetuous, mediocre, but that doesn't appear to be possible.
They were a pretty rag-tag bunch often with very little by way of armour & poor quality horses. More opportunist 'robber knights' than gentry!

Cheers
Mark


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Dernière édition par Mark G Fry le Lun Jan 02, 2023 8:57 pm; édité 1 fois
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 7:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Fun lists! Very Happy
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 02, 2023 8:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Very Happy

My People's Crusader army is in 28mm scale, but if I do one of these it is going to have to be in 15mm Shocked

But I like the idea of massed Levy type armies. I suspect that in the hands of a more experienced player than I, they could do very well.

We have a player on the UK circuit (Ian Speed) who does very well in competitions with large mediocre armies. He also used a Slaves Revolt army in v.3 again with some success.

Let us see if we can get this list adopted officially.
Cheers
Mark
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015
Messages: 95
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2023 4:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
But can the ADG system really handle armies that can drop upwards of 50 units on the table at 200 points?
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2023 7:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Jhykronos a écrit:
But can the ADG system really handle armies that can drop upwards of 50 units on the table at 200 points?


This may be a problem in competition, as broking a 50 unit's army is almost impossible in 2h30.
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Mark G Fry
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Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2023 9:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
My 40BP Peaples Crusader army lost twice at Brixham, (to a HYW English & a Samurai) it beat a Burgundian Ordonnance & had a winning draw against a medieval Irish & a losing draw against another HYW English.

In both lost games my opponents played very aggressive games. But it is equally hard for the peasants to win, as you equally need to play fast & aggressively.

You can already get the People's Crusader up to a BP 43 & the Slaves Revolt to 46 and both are approved Laughing

In period, against a lot of Hvy Knights or Pike or massed Longbow, the peasants die in droves ... but as Stalin stated " quantity has a quality all of its own" !!!

Cheers
Mark
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