Art De La Guerre

[IanS]

OK, as many of the club will tell you this is a pet peeve of mine guaranteed to annoy me if you mention it. I have kept my piece for a while now but I think the time has come to get this of my chest. So here goes:

Why is the Japanese Naginata not classified as a polearm?

Even Wikipedia (source of all truth and wisdom) says in it first line on the Naginata "The naginata is a pole weapon ...." and "it is similar to the Chinese guan dao or the European glaive..." both of which are given polearm in their respective lists. It seems to fit all the criteria for a pole arm in ADLG but is strangely missing.

On a personal note having this *might* even make the Later Samurai list workable instead of having all that medium sword just waiting to get ridden down by Knights & HC

Ian

[DieselDave]

100% with you on this.
According to what I've read the Naginata was originally developed in early Japan as an 'relatively easy to use' anti-cavalry weapon for villagers to use in protecting themselves against raiders.
It really should be a 'polearm'

[KevinD]

I think the issue is that followers with Naginata were seen as crap. I’d say this is right for the followers in the Samurai list (#221) but perhaps not for the Ashigaru in the Later Samurai list (#259). The other issue was they wanted to make the Yari better than the Naginata.

BTW, MI Polearm are not particularly effective versus knights. They would be much more robust if they were HI, which seems reasonable for the Later Samurai list. (If they are MI, keeping them as basic Sword makes them just as effective versus other foot and 14-20% cheaper and hence much better at bulking out your army and providing rough terrain troops.)

It’s too bad the Later Samurai list cuts off right at 1500, unlike so many other lists. At a slightly later date you get the Impact (Impetuous) cavalry and firearm equipped foot.

[ALEXANDER]

The Polearm is a misdevelopment. I have Swiss and am annoyed that I no longer have Medium Swordmen 2HW. The Polearm is an anti cavalry weapon. It's useless in bad terrain. Swordmen impetuous or impact are cheaper or better.
... and in open terrain against horsemen, Heavy Spearmen are better and cheaper!!!! than Heavy swordmen Polearm

I think polearm should be classed as

....Medium spearmen + 2HW 8 points
or Heavy Spearmen + 2HW 9 points

+**cancels iimpact of Impetous swordmen if recieving charge to the front

[ALEXANDER]

The early Swiss still had Polearm instead of Pikes. They were usefull against both mounted troops and infantry. But it was reported that the polearm had problems against dismounted knights.
A rating of Heavy Spearmen + 2HW would reflect this as the dismounted knights are Heavy Swordmen 2HW heavy armour

On the other hand, there is a famous battle in which the late Swiss advance through a forest with their pikemen..
and specifically bring their polearm fighters forward....to cross the forest. So the polearm must still make sense against infantry in the woods.

[Zoltan]

Roald M. Knutsen's Japanese Poelarms is the most detailed book I've come across on the construction and use of Japanese pole weapons:

"Charts the evolution of Japanese pole-arms from the bronze spears of the Yayoi period right up to to the Meiji Restoration; deals with the history and development of each category of spear; besides the blades, the shafts & mounts are described in detail; outlines the schools of spear and sword fencing from the early 14th century; a very necessary addition to the library of anyone interested in arms and armour; fully illustrated. Japanese spear-weapons mainly comprise the naginata (similar to the European glaive) and types of yari (pike / halberd). Hoko are a hook weapon."

See also:
Ratti & Westbrook, Secrets of the Samurai; A Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan
George Cameron Stone, A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times

In general parlance I think the terms polearm (an arm on the end of a pole) and spear may be used quite loosely and interchangeably. I suspect the distinction the ADLG rules are trying to achieve is between simple cutting and thrusting (hey, come back WRG all is foregiven) and pole weapons that also allow "hooking" and "hammering."

The Japanese pole weapons seem mainly yari (spears) and naginata (sword on a pole) although there are also some specialist (less common) pole weapons that enable hooking. But the clichéd pole arm swirling by lightly armoured soldiers we typically see in Samurai movies seems to be the primary technique. This is markedly different from heavily armoured European soldiers using pole axes to hack and hammer into each other.

[IanS]

[Black Prince]

I certainly found the Early Samurai list more interesting and fun to use when compared to the later Samurai.

I am still struggling to see cost benefit of polearm and would prefer HW over over polearm when looking at army selection, it would be different if the polearm had a +1 versus all if it wins a melee but only against mounted is a downer.

[Jhykronos]

[Jhykronos]

[Jhykronos]

[ALEXANDER]

If the polearm would be Heavy Spearmen + 2HW for 9 points

It would cancel the armor of Heavy Cavalry Cataphracts or Knights in mellee
..win a combat against normal spearmen in case of a tie
and add +1 to the die, if it wins against swordmen.

This would be a very interesting troop type

But then ordinary pikemen would probably be too expensive

[wuzhuiqiu8888]

But were followers or foot bushi with naginata really crap or simply unable (or disallowed) to ride horses? Perhaps, they simply lacked the privilege of having an opportunity to learn how to shoot a bow from a moving horse and the wealth to afford the bow, the armour, the horse, the horse trappings, and the horse's upkeep. Judging from one of the Mongol Invasion Scrolls, they would seem to have managed to collect a number of Mongol heads. And they did wear armour.

Beware of retrospectively projecting exaggerated class distinctions onto relative fighting ability...

[Mark G Fry]

Somewhat late to this debate, but surely Naginata are HCW not polearm.

Polearms specifically have a pointed blade as well as a cutting bladed element. So are designed to fend off an attendant- on foot or mounted, as well as deliver a percussive blow.

Naginata, whist having a hooked blade (generally) rely primarily on the force of their cutting blade.

A traditional Yari is a slashing spear, so had a pointed blade plus 2 side 'lugs' that are sharp & designed to catch an opponent. So unless we are talking about the later much longer Yari (classified as Pike mediocre in v.4) I'd suggest that a Yari is a pole arm & a Naginata is HCW.

NB: the Invasion scroll shows depictions of Japanese 'followers' type infantry with Naginata which also have dangling hooks attached to the heads. Presumably to entangle a horsemans armour & unhorse them. However, I'd suggest that their primary mode of killing is still using a heavy percussive blow.

Having Followers just armed with sword in the 221 list does seem to be inaccurate & if they are such poor quality should that be reflected by them being classified as Mediocre.

So MF swd,HCW mediocre should be an option (IMHO).

[Mark G Fry]