Art De La Guerre

[Snowcat]

If the army you have chosen has no HI available to it, so you have no heavy foot strike force...

But you have a very good range of HC, MC, LC all with Bw and a decent (0-6) potential strike force of HC Impetuous...

Do you bother taking a rough terrain force of MI swordsmen and Javelinmen and LI bow, to add some tactical flexibility and try to get closer to a more balanced army? Or better to keep the rough terrain option to an absolute minimum and just focus on more mounted maneuver and shooting to complement the HC Impetuous? i.e stick to the army's more obvious natural strength rather than trying to make up for its apparent limitation/weakness?

(How good does a rough terrain force need to be to warrant taking in the first place if the army has no HI to support it?)

Cheers
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"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Mike Bennett]

Do not take mediums, take lights ideally with javelin. They can screen other troops or in difficut they can delay or even win. Choose mountain or forest as rough gives him an advantage, difficult is more equal. Try a Strategist to control the terrain if allowed

[Snowcat]

If you have to take a few Mediums (of the vanilla kind), what do you do with them? Camp guards? Bait? Reserves? Rough terrain fillers?

Would a small force of say 3 x Javelinmen and 1 x LI Bow be useful to seize/occupy a rough terrain feature while the rest of the cav army went to work? It would tie up 1/8 of the army's 200 pts to do this.
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"When one goes, one must go with style."

[KevinD]

It’s really hard to answer this question in the abstract.

What’s the likely opponents and your overall plan? Are you looking to secure a flank and prevent the enemy from getting at your flank while you win in the open with the rest of the army? Or are you looking to have the rough/difficult terrain force emerge from the terrain to get at your opponent’s flanks? Do you want to just delay the enemy in terrain or try to overwhelm your opponent’s rough terrain force and scoop up a bunch of CPs? Are you just looking for some cheap filler that can hide from danger (perhaps uphill and maybe emerge onto a flank of ignored)?

I tend not to regard LMI Javelinmen very highly and prefer either LI or MI Swords of various types, and various Bw can be handy to threaten enemy from terrain if he lacks troops to counter this.

In general you don’t want to invest in this only to be inferior and gifting your opponents a bunch of CPs when he massacres your force.

Keep in mind unless you are uphill (or on a gully edge or riverbank) in cover you will probably need to invest some Command in moving them as the action heats up. If all your CPs are likely to be tied up shepherding Impetuous troops this might be a problem.

That said, in general I would tend to buy 2-6 (cheapish) MI if available to bulk out a mounted force and add another threat. If not, one or a few LI might be handy (but they (LI) have serious trouble projecting out of terrain). Other players have found very high quality HI are good in this role as they can do well enough in terrain and then be a terrific threat once they get through it.

[Snowcat]

Hi Kevin. Great reply, thanks.

I did make answering the question a little tricky given the very general way I posed it, didn't I?

Admittedly, I am looking at this with the Avars in mind (2-8 Medium Swordsmen or Javelinmen). But it did get me thinking about cav armies in general and whether adding a rough terrain force to them was a worthwhile idea in ADLG even when you don't know what your opponent might have.

Do you sacrifice the points - anything from 1/8 to 1/4 of your army's 200pts - and aim to deploy them to secure a flank or occupy the rough to threaten the enemy from it while the mounted troops dance or charge about in the open? At 7pts, Javelinmen aren't that cheap, so I'd be expecting good things from them. Perhaps they're overpriced? At 6pts, Medium Swordsmen are marginally cheaper but probably good targets for better enemy to munch on.

From your reply, it seems like you'd go for just a few (2-4) Medium Swordsmen with maybe 1 LI Bow and leave it at that, more filler than a proper rough terrain force. And they would probably need to be in a command that does not have the impetuous heavy cav.

If HI were available, it seems to me that most folks would snap them up and ignore the lighter/medium infantry types, and not bother trying to add a rough terrain force unless it was 'punchy', such as Thracian or Dailami.

Cheers
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[KevinD]

I’m not a fan at all of Impetuous HC or MC, so I’m unsure of that. I sort of imagine they would do well to have some solid HI around that they could charge out from when they get a favorable matchup. Such as HC impetuous hanging back in gaps (possibly created by slides) between a line of HI Sp, the cavalry could then protect the Sp from nasty things like Impetuous or Impact Swordsmen.

With skirmish capable cavalry (HC Bw or HC Impact (1/2) Bw), I like MI or Bw or MI 1/2 Bw. These MI/LMI hang out in terrain where they fulfill a few roles. First, they can effectively shoot in support of your cavalry (or vice versa) if armed with bows, but hunkering down in terrain they are not vulnerable to being swept away like they would be in the open. Second they can just deny the enemy the ability to move through the terrain and project ZOCs out from it (and heavier troops or mounted can’t simultaneously ZOC them as they suffer a combat penalty in there). Either of these first two can then transition into a more aggressive role if there is a good target and/or the enemy’s flanks are getting exposed as he chases your evading cavalry past the terrain.

You don’t need a lot of units for this, maybe 2-4 per terrain piece/wing (plus probably 1-3 LI). If you split them between two commands you can then put them side by side if there is a huge piece of terrain you want to fight for and you are expecting an enemy with decent numbers and/or quality of rough terrain troops. Alternatively you can deploy them on separate wings if there is key terrain on both flanks. Putting them in ambush can be useful if for no other reason than to be able to place them where you like to get desirable matchups when the ambush springs. (This obviously works better if you defend.)

If you are going to be outclassed by rough terrain troops you can try using a rough hill or even gully edge to get you a bonus to hold off your opponents.

These guys are generally petty cheap (compared to HC Bw) so can help beef up your army’s CPs and stave off defeat but be careful about them turning into a liability and getting them killed off for purpose and hastening the defeat of your army.

[Snowcat]

Yes, I see the benefit for MI as filler. HC Bow are quite expensive! And I do like the idea of potentially being able to deny an area of terrain that the enemy could otherwise just occupy/move through (while the cav are nearby or elsewhere).

So a smallish force of 3-4 MI + 1 LI Bow seems reasonable for this.

Sounds like you'd forego a strike force command of HC impetuous, for more HC/MC/LC with bow. Interesting. I would have expected a desire for at least 1 strike command of shock troops. Not that this disappoints me, as I'd rather have extra Avars than Gepid and Bulgar heavies.

Thanks again.
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Mike Bennett]

I have happily used Sicilian kingdom with 12+ knights plus a few light horse and light foot, and no medium foot. I use the strategist to modify terrain, and then simply go in hard and fast where there is space. Worst case one or two units positioned outside any inconvenient terrain protect the army from flank attacks as they move past terrain. All units are generally kept more than 1ud from rough terrain to avoid being pinned at no risk to the enemy, although light foot can go into difficult when necessary.

This is even easier with bow cavalry, who do not need of close right up to contact, and have the option to evade when necessary.

On the other hand with other armies I sometimes take 3, or possibly 4 good quality mediums, which are sufficient to let me dispute or win one key piece of bad terrain.

[Snowcat]

Hi Mike

12+ knights! Eek! I could see the Avars evading a lot against them.

You mention 3-4 'good quality' MI... That would be nice for a rough terrain force, but I'm stuck with MI vanilla-filler or Javelinmen.

Ironically the Avars are known to have thrown their Slav subjects (MI/LMI) in first against their enemies, but if you try this in ADLG (and most other systems) you'll quickly have a demoralised command and a problem with the overall army.
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Mike Bennett]

[KevinD]

Keep in mind HC Bw are far from completely helpless in rough terrain. Your shooting is unaffected and you can still evade. (If you have a LI behind your lines you can leave him to die for the cause if the enemy rolls up and you roll down on your evade.) Not a cost effective use of HC but don’t let a tiny force of Bw, LI or MI deter you from muscling your way through if you’ve got numbers and morale on your side. Keep in mind you have no ZOCs in, into, or out of this terrain though.

Also the terrain neutralizes the mounted impact factor - so feel free to park your HC Bw in rough and shoot up enemy Cavalry and Knights - if he comes in after you he will lose his first round impact factor and you can still evade if you don’t like the situation. Rough hills (covered in brush or fields) can be handy for this as you get a +1 if uphill. (Again the lack of ZOCs in here can open up some options for slipping around enemies so be careful.

Sending masses of Slavs in to die first will probably not work well. However a single guy can trigger impetuous troops to charge. (If Javelinmen, they might even be able to run away and live to tell about it.) If they are at a weird angle and you don’t evade the conforming rules might get him facing in directions he would rather not, potentially exposing a flank, but this is easier said than done.

[Mike Bennett]

[Snowcat]

And now, based on the above replies, I'm wondering if the 3-4 MI or Javelinmen might be better spread into 2 groups as trigger/filler rather than 1 rough terrain block...

Also, while there are many HC Bow available, there are also a lot of MC/LC Bow available for 9 and 6 pts respectively. MC Bow will provide more shooting strength than LC, but are more vulnerable to attack. LC also increase the scouting strength of the army.
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"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Mike Bennett]

[Snowcat]

With Skythians you would easily have enough LH to afford the luxury of using them in 2 ranks. But would you still play LH that way if you only had little groups of 2-4 LH here and there?
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."