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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 02, 2022 3:45 pm    Sujet du message: Q&A Summary Répondre en citant
The next post is a list that tries to summarize all the Q&A in the V4 questions folder.
It does not include:
  • Army list questions
  • Q&A in the French folder
  • Legacy from the V3 folder or FAQ
I have tried to include any question that is not clearly answered in the text without making any judgement on the quality of the question.
I have tried to precisely but pithily describe the state of the response. Nothing is official until ONYX Editions publishes the answers, but often there are sensible, undisputed answers available here.

Please provide any suggestions, corrections, additions, etc. I will update the list as improvements are identified. Please try not to dwell on my judgements or occasional editorializing;-)

Za
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 02, 2022 3:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
(page 10) Can a group rearrange itself during a move, so long as it forms a group at the beginning and end of the turn?

[No. The group must move in formation. However it can be recomposed at will for a second or third move in the same movement phase.]

(page 10) Is the definition of a group correct?

[Well, not technically.]

(page 14) Can a WWg move once and then become Battle-ready?

[Yes. Presumably any uncharacterized CP expenditure is a move. It would means the text about recovering, moving, and redeploying is extraneous as a WWg can make at most two moves during movement]

(page 15) Is the combat factor of Cv attacking the flank or rear of Levy (which is HI) 1 or 2?

[Allegedly official, one.]

(page 16) Is it correct that El have Impact against El and bladed WWg, as stated?

[It is not unusual to find text in one location contradicted elsewhere. Usually, the more specific rule applies. Therefore, bladed Wwg (page 14) and El (page 18) never suffer Impact from El.]

(page 16,17) First round front edge melee with a SCh is not listed as cancelling Armour. Does this mean it does apply?

[Per author, no, it does not apply.]

(page 17) Do Armoured El have protection of 0?

[No, 1. While the rules generally take precedence over page 22/QSR, the more specific rule is found on the page 22 and the QSR. Units in square brackets have their armour bonus integrated. Armour for El and light chariots is optional, and adds 1 to the listed protection factor.]

(page 17-20, 63) Can cancelled Special Abilities still cancel the enemy's?

[This is going to take a bit. Let's start with the original question.]

(*) Armoured HI with Support are attacked by Impact Cv and lose. Does their Armour reduce their losses?

[This would seem easy, Support "cancels" Furious Charge which "does not apply". Furious Charge has two effects: to increase the damage dealt and to cancel Armour. The first thought is that neither effect would occur. But Armour is cancelled if the opponent "has" Furious Charge, and it was asked if this might mean the capacity to furiously charge, whether or not the opponent did furiously charge. A national referee asserted this was the intent. After much discussion and the issuing of a new errata, the situation remained the same. No authority has confirmed, rejected, or even commented on this interpretation. There are a number of other instances where a Special Ability cancels an opponent's Special Ability, but, again, there has been no further discussion. I beleive the following questions cover all the bases.]

(*) Armoured HI attack the flank of Impact Cv but lose. Does the Furious Charge Special Ability of Impact Cv canceled the loss reduction effect of Armour?

(*) If Missile Support is cancelled, does it still cancel Furious Charge in its opponent?

(*) If Impact is cancelled, does it still cancel the Javelin bonus of its opponent?

(*) If Kn Impact is cancelled would Ct Impact count against them?

(*) If mounted Impact is cancelled would foot Impact then count against them?

(page 19) Does Panic affect horse drawn WWg?

[No, only mounted units. While the rules generally take precedence over page 22/QSR, the more specific rule is found on the page 22 and the QSR. See footnote.]

(page 20) Are stakes a front edge effect only?

[Yes, there may have been a loss of "fighting across stakes" in the translation process.]

(page 20) Can you plant stakes as a group?

[Yes, those units in the group that have them, plant them.]

(page 21) Under what conditions would HCv that can be fielded as foot not be able to dismount?

[None apparent - looks like "some" is extraneous.]

(page 21) How many ways can Heavy Cv impact and bow or 1/2 bow dismount?

[Looks like only one. The 4th bullet under Dismount Types would seem to override bullets 2 and 3 and would be less confusing if it appeared first.]

(page 22) Is this page correct and complete?

[Per author, no. Like the QRS it is a memory aid which elides details found elsewhere in the rules.]

(page 24) What does the table have to do with command value?

[Allegedly per the author, nothing. It is a table of command points as explained on page 25.]

(page 25) If an impetuous unit makes a difficult manoeuvre instead of an uncontrolled charge, does it cost 3+1 CP?

[No, just 3 CP. The full details are found on page 34-5.]

(page 25) If a commander is engaged in combat and the attached unit disengages,
does the +1 CP cost of issuing orders still apply?

[Yes according to received wisdom. Which contradicts the clear statement on page 26.]

(page 26) How, exactly, is command range measured?

[It's a bit messy. Can you substitute a square 1 UD base to do the measuring? Presumably. Measure from anywhere on the 1 UD area immediately behind the unit to which the commander is attached.]

(page 27) If a commander is attached to a unit in melee, is the commander locked in place?

[No, only if the commander is engaged in combat. The wording "when a commander is attached to a unit, ...or until the end of the melee if it is engaged in combat." should have been translated, "...if the commander is engaged..."]

(page 27) Can an engaged commander disengage from a melee?

[Yes, either side may disengage.]

(page 27) Is a commander engaged for the duration of melee involving the unit the commander is attached to, or for the duration of melee involving the enemy unit? for example, if the enemy disengages and charges back in with a different unit.

[Unaddressed.]

(page 27) Does the last bullet refer to losing the unit in melee, or to any (shooting, friendly el rampage, or burst through for example) loss?

[Disputed. An unattached commander flees when "contacted" and only rout in melee implies contact by enemy.]

(page 27) How many times may an unattached commander move 5 UD?

[Unlikely to be useful, but there does not appear to be a limit.]

(page 29) May you combine movement through plain terrain with road movement through slowing terrain at the plain terrain rate?

[Disputed?]

(page 29) Must impetuous HI move 3 UD in plain terrain in the operational zone to avoid the difficult manoeuvre penalty?

[Per author, yes]

(page 29) Must HI move forward ("advance") when taking advantage of the 3 UD ma in the operational zone?

[No, any kind of move is permitted.]

(page 33) How is Contraction supposed to work?

[Okay I'll admit it. This is compiler's privilege. I am totally baffled and I'm hoping someone can explain it to me.]

(page 34) If an impetuous unit use only part of its 1 UD road bonus, is it a difficult manoeuvre?

[No, so long as it has moved at least its full movement allowance, where "full movement allowance" does not include road bonus.]

(page 36) May a unit in a ZoC charge and slide, wheel, 1/2 or 1/4 turn to avoid penalizing terrain?

[No, it is only permitted to more closely align.]

(page 37) Does the special case for exiting a ZoC apply to all mounted?

[No, just to those who cannot evade. It makes exceptions to that process.]

(page 37) May a group exit a ZoC if not all units are in a ZoC or the same ZoC?

[Yes, so long at the units do not have to orient in different directions, they may evade as a group. Units which back out must do so individually.]

(page 37) If the MTE could countact either the front or flank (or flank or rear), how do evading exiters initially orient?

[The errata suggests that if the MTE is on the flank (can legally contact your flank) you must 1/4 turn away from it. Flank or rear is presumably handled the same way.]

(page 37) After initial orientation, may an evading exiter reorient to the direction of the MTE?

[The rules would have to specify that all ZoC being exited from have parallel alignment. The rules don't say that, so it would seem they only apply to evading a charge.]

(page 38) If a unit is in penalizing terrain, but its front edge in wholly or partly outside, does that part of the front edge emit a ZoC?

[Allegedly per the author, no.]

(page 39) May a unit allowed to interpenetrate do so with a 1UD slide into an adjacent unit?

[Per the author, interpenetration must be fore and aft unless "in any direction" is stated.]

(page 39) If a friendly unit passed through then becomes support, does this disallow the interpenetration?

[This is only possible if both units are in support position, only one of which will count. Reported previous adjudication says no, the interpenetration is allowed.]

(page 40) Does a group disengaging follow group move rules, or do units move at different speeds (as during evasion or charge)?

[Allegedly per author, a group move.]

(page 40) Can units not "fighting" be part of the disengaging group?

[Allegedly per author, only one unit in the group needs to be in combat.]

(page 40) Must units in the group who are not in combat meet the "allowed cases" restrictions?

[Unclear if and how.]

(page 41) If the front edge of a unit coincides with the "the straight line extending the enemy's front edge" may it make front contact? flank contact? both? neither?

[If it coincides, consider the rest of the unit. If in front, front contact; if behind, flank contact. This is a fundamental rule which is unfortunately not correctly described.]

(page 41+) A two unit group charges well aligned enemy. The unit on the left contacts enemy. The unit on the right wishes to slide past this enemy and contact a second enemy unit further away. May it do so?

[If the unit on the right is in the ZoC of the second enemy unit, then it qualifies by the 3rd bullet of "sliding along the enemy". Or it may stop in simple support of the friend on the left. If it is not in the ZoC then first bullet does not apply because "already" indicates engagement before the charge.]

(page 41+) A two unit group charges unaligned enemy. The unit on the left contacts enemy. The unit on the right does not, and wishes to contact a second enemy unit further away. May it do so?

[The diagram on page 44 states that the unit "must" conform into simple support against the first unit. This does not appear to be found in the text, but solely in the diagram caption.]

(page 42-44) What is an "initial target"?

[It is the very first enemy unit (or units depending upon alignment) contacted by a charge movement.]

(page 43, 10) May units in a group charge advance different distances?

[It is still a group move, so unless disconnected by contact with enemy units or ZoC, etc., they must remain in group formation. It's not clear to what extent they must stick together when some units do make contact - although it would usually be the preferred option anyway.]

(page 43) What are "different movement allowances"?

[This could mean their MA in plain terrain, their MA in their current location, their MA in their subsequent move. The first is simplest, so is preferred.]

(page 43) What is a "sub-group"?

[Consensus seems to be a legal group (or individual unit) all of whom have the same ma, formed from part of the group designated to evade.]

(page 44) Can a spontaneous charge allow a unit to move into a support position?

[Yes. Although focused almost exclusively on "charge" a move is explicitly permitted in the preamble.]

(page 45) If an impetuous unit is within charge range of an enemy, it must pay 3 CP to do anything other than charge (or move into support) correct?

[No. Only if it also does not qualify for any of the exceptions on page 46. This is official from the DT, but still not yet part of the errata.]

(page 45) Do you ignore an intervening friendly WWg?

[Of course not. If you cannot burst through to the enemy there is no uncontrolled charge.]

(page 46) The exceptions mean it is "not required" to make an uncontrolled charge. Is the charge optional?

[No, the exceptions are intended to be part of determining when an uncontrolled charge is possible. No CP cost, no uncontrolled charge if an exception applies.]

(page 47) If the initial reorientation is blocked, is the evade move cancelled?

[Yes, allegedly officially. The initial reorientation is done first to make checking the evade path easier, but it is part of the evade move and is reset if the evade move is blocked then or subsequently.]

(page 47) An initial target is charged on a front corner by an enemy eligible for flank contact. What direction is the Evade move?

[It should probably be handled like Exiting, priority to evading from the flank. Once the path is checked, reorientation to the charge direction is allowed.]

(page 48) Do light troops which themselves would be forced to evade if contacted by evaders beyond 1 UD, cancel the evade if they would be contacted < 1 UD as stated on page 48?

[No one thinks so.]

(page 48) May evaders avoid rough or difficult terrain (or obstacles and fortifications) the same way they avoid enemy units, friendly units they cannot interpenetrate, and impassible terrain?

[Moot. The second bullet on page 48 seems to suggest they can, but nothing else does.]

(page 48) May an evader move less than its maximum adjusted evade distance?

[Not voluntarily. But it cannot try to avoid hindrance further than 1 UD and may find it necessary to stop short.]

(page 48) Do evading groups use group moves to avoid obstacles?

[No, each unit moves independently, but of course if unhindered would remain in group formation.]

(page 48) May an evader chose to avoid a friendly unit rather than wheel and interpenetrate it?

[No, if the friendly unit is in the path and can be interpenetrated, then the evader must wheel if necessary and flee through it.]

(page 49) Does the 7th bullet mean that light or medium camelry can pass through horse mounted unit without the penalty of page 39?

[It is thought the bullet means there is no additional penalty, but camelry would still cause a cohesion point loss.]

(page 50) If the enemy is partially in terrain that gives them an advantage (hills, river banks, gullys) must one conform?

[Yes, it is not penalizing.]

(page 51) If a unit move contacts an engaged enemy on its flank and conforms into simple support, does it align where it struck, or at the front edge?

[Either?]

(page 51) May a unit conform into support where it also contacts another unengaged enemy?

[No.]

(page 51) May an engaged unit which finds itself in support against one enmey and in contact against a different enemy leave support and conform against the contact?

[Allegedly per author, yes. Note that if a unit charges into this situation, it must conform (page 50).]

(page 51) Must an impetuous unit in non-combat contact with an enemy, who moves into support against another (priority) enemy pay 3 CP?

[No, follow page 45.]

(page 51) A unit conforms into enemy, where another enemy unit is in flanking position. May the flanking enemy choose to evade?

[Moot, but note if the unit charged into the enfilade, the enemy could evade because it is "contacted" (page 47)]

(page 51) May a unit which starts in incomplete contact and conforms into simple support, then move?

[Unclear.]

(page 53) Is incomplete conformation permitted if it is cause by the presence of an enemy unit?

[Yes, the preamble is an incomplete list of example reasons.]

(page 55) You cannot Rally if you "voluntarily move or conform". What exactly is meant?

[It must mean "conform or voluntarily move", as conformance is rarely voluntary (artillery already in contact or completing conformance into penalizing terrain would qualify) and almost always predictable (conformance after pursuit is not). So if you know you will have to conform, you cannot rally. And if you rally you cannot chose to move. And if you are forced to move (adjustment after interpenetration, shifting) you can no longer rally. Being burst through also prevents rallying while rallying will prevent uncontrolled charging. There are exceptions for light troops. These rules are scattered throughout the text, including pages 39, 40, 45, and 53.]

(page 55) Is becoming Battle-ready count as a move?

[Spending CP's is a move order and so a move.]

(page 56) A shooter in non-melee contact conforms but the enemy evades. May the (otherwise eligable) shooter shoot?

[Conforming is not listed as preventing shooting, so yes.]

(page 57) Does a WWg get support from the additional 1UD of base when shooting, like the support they get in melee?

[No, just one shot at a single target.

(page 57) Do enemy lights block LOS?

[Seems unlikely as they can always be shot over. Makes a difference with seeing ambushes behind terrain.]

(page 58) What is the basic protection longbows reduce?

[A target's inherent protection plus armor bonus (but not pavises).]

(page 58) Does artillery get a +1 against El and WWg as stated on page 15?

[Probably, as such errors are usually (but not always) in the collective lists rather than the specific rule.]

(page 58 and 70) If a shooter is partly in difficult terrain, but shooting edge is entirely free, is it still penalized?

[Unknown and disputed. Note that Villages and Woods are both cover and difficult.]

(page 59) May LH not in front edge or rear edge contact shoot overhead in support?

[Per author, no.]

(page 59) Must friendly light troops be 1UD beyond the front edge of integrated artillery or of the paired unit in order to shoot over them?

[It would surely be 1UD down range and range is measured from the front edge of the paired unit.]

(page 59) May you shoot over the paired unit at the integrated artillery? what if the paired unit is in simple support?

[Perhaps. Note when the paired unit is in simple support, you cannot shoot at it, but the integrated artillery can still shoot over it.]

(page 60) May a unit in melee, melee support, or simple support deploy stakes?

[No, but maybe in simple support?]

(page 60) If a unit is in position for simple support in one melee and melee support in another, what happens?

[A big argument...]

(page 61) The precise circumstances of a multiple attack are a bit murky.
in particular, if an attacker is in simple support and swings into melee support, is this a "new" attack?

[Everyone seems to agree this is the intent, but disagree about the letter of the rules. Consensus seems to be that the first time each flank or the rear is (as qualified) attacked, there is one cohesion hit that turn. There are more esoteric questions that could be asked about units disengaging or routing and new units joining.]

(page 63) Is incendiary against El and WWg cancelled by flank|rear attack?

[Per errata, incendiary +1 is a bonus, not a Special Ability so is zeroed out by non-light fully conformed flank|rear attack.]

(page 63) If a unit is on the flank|rear of an enemy, but no longer in melee support because it has itself been attacked in the flank|rear, does it (as qualified) zero the enemy's CF and cancel its Special Abilities?

[No, look carefully at diagram on page 66. Even though the unit is no longer in melee support, it is still attacking the enemy's flank|rear.]

(page 64) If a unit attacks an enemy's rear edge and both are on a hill facing downslope, do both have height advantage?

[The rule should probably read "the line that extends the edges in melee contact."]

(page 68) How many total hits may a unit take from routing and rampaging units?

[Unlike other sources of cohesion hits, there does not appear to be a limit on the phase.]

(page 69, 41, 50, 52) When must a pursuer stop?

[The rules cover this, but it's a bit tricky. The pursuer must stop if if encounters "new" enemy. What are old enemies? They cannot be the enemy main unit, as that has routed and it cannot be enemy units in melee support, because the pursuer much immediately conform to them. That leaves simple support, which, being old enemy, can be slid past. Consider the follwoing where the numbers are attacking the letters:
Code:

AB                  B                                              1B
1   A is routed -> 1   B is not a new enemy so 1 may slide past ->    Not a good idea, though, as B likely conforms into 1's flank next turn.

compared to:
Code:

AB                          B                                      B
12  A and 2 are rounted -> 1   B is new enemy so 1 must conform -> 1


(page 69) If the main unit pursues, must impetuous units in simple support also advance?

[Probably not.]

(page 69) Does an elephant's pursuit take priority over non-impetuous victorious units?

[Eveyone thinks no, elephants should be treated the same way impetuous units are.]

(page 71) Is it possible for a hill to block LOS in one direction and not the other?

[Yes and no. Because LOS is measured from both corners of the viewing (usually shooting) edge, it is possible one unit is in view and the other is not. Consider a unit halfway into deep woods. It is easy enough to trace the two sight lines to the exposed half, but tracing from the corner buried behind more than 1UD of woods is not possible. So the crestline of a hill can easily hide one unit but not the other.

However, there is a second issue involving horizon lines. Each sight line of the pair that makes up the LOS must in principle be symmetric. If you can trace sight in one direction, you can trace it in the other. But because the horizon line is relative to the position of the unit, it is different for units in different positions. Sometimes this means one unit can trace a sight line to another avoiding its horizon line, but the other unit cannot trace back without crossing its own sight line. Therefore, one must check the sight line against both units horizon lines to make sure visibilty exists.]

(page 72) Is it possible to place an ambush on a road?

[Disputed. Some think the table entry on 72 is intended to mean one uses the terrain crossed. Others believe it is prohibited to prevent an ambusher from revealing and springing out of rough/difficult terrain at full speed.]

(page 74) When must the actual form of the terrain piece be fixed, and when is this shown to the opponent?

[Unspecified how much optimization one might engage in.]

(page 74-5) How many times may you roll to select a village or water feature?

[Everyone thinks just once each.]

(page 75) Must the defender select a hill as well as the village if they wish to place the village on the hill?

[No, it is like brush on a hill. It does not count against the total or player ("two identical") allowances, but it does count as two selections and so reduce the number of selections and adjustments accordingly.]

(page 75) When would there be more than 3 terrain pieces on one side of the table compared to the other during placement?

[Never - "or more" is extraneous.]

(page 76) How many terrain pieces can be removed in total?

[Per author, presumably only one. This means you can remove an impassible piece on a 5 or 6 and any other piece on a 6, but once a piece is removed, neither player can remove another.]

(page 76) What if there is no room to place a camp?

[Unanswered, although I think it is not permitted to place (or move) a terrain piece that would prevent camp placement. There is a "lack of space".]

(page 77) May you reveal ambushers with planted stakes?

[Yes]

(page 77) May one voluntarily reveal an ambush any time the enemy is within 4 to 1 UD?

[Allegedly per author, yes.]

(page 77) May the enemy continue to move after an ambush is revealed?

[Allegedly per author, yes but cannot charge (make contact).]

(page 78) Units must deploy in command range of their commander. What if the commander is in ambush?

[No agreement. Suggestions to deploy within command range of ambush marker, to freely deploy, to mark the initial locations and ensure the commander later deploys legally - which might not be possible. The possiblity of two ambush markers was not considered;-)]

(page 78) May you deploy with Stakes planted or WWg Battle-ready?

[Yes.]

(page 79) Can you choose to lose units rather than include them in an entering flank march?

[Unaddressed.]

(page 80) May a defender reveal an ambush of units in an allied or unreliable commander's corps before their first activation roll and thereby make them reliable?

[Opinion seems to be that the rules incorrectly allow this.]


Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Mer Jan 04, 2023 4:39 pm; édité 10 fois
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 02, 2022 7:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Very fine. About 9 answers on 10 are clearly writen in rule set.
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 5:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Lionel, could you perhaps tell us what criterion you use to decide what questions to address?

Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Ven Aoû 05, 2022 6:04 pm; édité 1 fois
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 7:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
2 or 3 guys alone make questions. Like othersr dt members with real life, i don't spend hours answering questions without interrest.
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 10:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for sharing! Very Happy
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2022 2:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have revised the summary with questions asked since the previous version and deleted those resolved by the new errata.
If you find my mistakes or have other suggestions, please let me know. Please drop me a line if you find this useful.
Happy New Years!
Za
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