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Safavid Persian list?
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agregory
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 6:04 pm    Sujet du message: Safavid Persian list? Répondre en citant
Folks:

After recently painting up an Ottoman Empire army, I decided I wanted some Safavids to fight them. I did not see a list in the rules which covered them - understandable, as they are really a later army. I have put together the following draft list, and would appreciate comments from people who know more than I do about the Safavids. (I am not an expert by any means!)

My interest is in putting together an army for informal games (we mostly use ADLG as a set for historical battles at my local club).

The list is below. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

A. Gregory

_________________________

Early Safavid Persians
______________________

1501-1589 AD
Plain, Steppe, Mountains
Command +4
Strategist: ???

The Safavid Persians rose to prominence in Northern Iran in 1501, among the Turcomen tribes disaffected by Ottoman rule. Rooted in the Safavid order of Sufiism coming from Azerbaijan, a branch of militant Shia arose, the Qizilbash, informed by the the belief that their leader was the divinity in human form. Ismail I collected together a force of Turcomen, Talysh tribesmen, Circassians, and Georgians, and began building an empire. He fought against the remnants of the Timurid Empire, and increasingly came into conflict with the Ottomans, with whom the Safavids would fight a series of wars lasting until the fall of the empire in 1720, with a last resurgence until Abbas III was overthrown by the first of the Afsharids in 1736.

This list is confined to the earlier part of the period, more in keeping with the era covered by ADLG. After the defeat at Chakdiran in 1514 at the hands of the Ottomans, largely due to their use of gunpowder weapons, the Safavids adopted artillery. Later still, the army was reformed under Abaas the Great to embrace the ghilman system where ghulam soldiers from Circassia, Georgia, and Armenia provided a counter-balance to the Qizilbash factions which had been previously dominant. These changes included the creation of professional Tufangchis (musketeer) and Topchis (artillery) corps, as well as the establishment of a ghulam cavalry force called the Qullar. These changes took place too late to be included in this list, which covers the period up through the ascension of Abbas the Great in 1589.

Qizilbash Nobles* (6-16 Units)

Medium cavalry bow impact (10)
Heavy cavalry bow impact (12)
Upgrade to elite (+2)

Persian, Georgian, or Circassian Feudal Retainers (3-6 Units)

Medium cavalry bow (9)
Heavy cavalry bow (9)


Turkomans (3-6 Units)

Light cavalry bow (6)
Upgrade to elite (+1)
Medium cavalry bow (9)
Upgrade to elite (+2)

Talysh Militia (0-4 Units)
Bowmen (7)
Light infantry bow (4)

Afghan Auxiliaries (0-2 Units)
Light infantry firearm (4)
Upgrade to elite (+1)
Medium swordsmen (6)

Levy Spearmen (0-2 Units)
Levy (3)

Bombard [after 1514] (0-1 Unit)
Heavy artillery (10)
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 7:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A few quick thoughts:

That’s an awful lot of Impact Bow cavalry. I don’t think any other lists get more than 4.

Further the Quizibashes didn’t really emphasize lances, more bow, sabers, maces etc. Right?

They did have some elite slave soldiers/bodyguards even before the Quillar who had lances and could be dual armed but they seemed to be limited in numbers.

Should the Qizilibashes be (or at least have the option to be) Impetuous? Or should they be horse archers?

Before 1514 they certainly seem to have regarded themselves as invincible. But were they highly maneuverable on the field? Did they always charge at the first instance or emphasize archery to soften up a target and then charge?

Maybe
HC/MC All Impetuous or All Bow 6-16
Upgrade to Elite - Any
Upgrade to Impact All/None (maybe - this seems dubious to me)
Upgrade Elite to Impact Bow 0-4 (or 0-2?)

Given his thrashing of the Ottomans, etc. making Ismail a Strategist seems reasonable, maybe before 1514.

Should an all cavalry force be permitted? Did they fight any major actions without any infantry?

There were other groups like Kurds and Bedouin Arabs floating around. Did they ever contribute troops to the army?

Have you looked at the ADLG Renaissance version?
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agregory
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 7:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for your quick response!

I did look at the Renaissance ADLG draft I had, but it is from May 2019 and had no list for the Safavids. There may be a more recent version?

I did consider whether the Qizilbash should be impetuous, but when I looked at the Timurid list, they had the "add impact" option. You are right that this is way too many, and some should be impetuous. I do not know about lances - they used some, I think, but I am judging from what few period illustrations I have seen, and those are hardly a reliable source. The good people at Khurasan Miniatures do not have a Qizilbash figure with lance, so you are probably right (!) - I am definitely in the market for source material here, if you can recommend anything.

The Ottomans were apparently reluctant to face the charge of the Qizilbash in the field, and so dug in and used firepower at Chaldiran. I wanted to make them worthy of that.

They did have a small number of ghulam guards, but these were apparently few in number from what I have read. When established as a major force, they were only 2-3,000 in number, so before that I am guessing only hundreds.

Making Ismail I a strategist seems like a good idea - I wasn't sure. Given the Ottomans have a massive command rating, I wanted to make sure the Safavids could give them a run for their money. I would consider giving them a +5 instead of a +4, but I think I'd want to playtest a bit.

I will look into what I can find on the field battles. There were certainly some Kurds in this picture, although I do not know about Bedouins. Probably the answer is yes, though, considering. More research needed here, I think.

Again, many thanks for your response!

Cheers,

A. Gregory
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agregory
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 10, 2022 7:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Folks:

After a bit more research, I have arrived at the following list for my Safavids. It now incorporates Kurds but not Bedouins (an assumption based on religious differences, but I did discover that Kurds were present in some forces). I have adjusted the numbers of impactful bow-armed elite cavalry (!). I am convinced that Qizilbash did in fact charge with the lance as one mode of combat, although how common this was I cannot say with any assurance. (There are simply too many period depictions of them doing this for it not to be allowed.) I have made them all impetuous otherwise.

All-cavalry forces are allowed, based on descriptions of some of the raiding forces employed against the Ottomans, where it seems to be the case that the only infantry were employed as camp guards.

If anyone can give me better information, I will revise this, but I thought I would post my final conclusion in case anyone else felt moved to raise this army.

Cheers,

A. Gregory
_____________________________

Early Safavid Persians
______________________

1501-1589 AD
Plain, Steppe, Mountains
Command +4
Strategist: Ismail I (1501-1514)

The Safavid Persians rose to prominence in Northern Iran in 1501, among the Turcomen tribes disaffected by Ottoman rule. Rooted in the Safavid order of Sufiism coming from Azerbaijan, a branch of militant Shia arose, the Qizilbash, informed by the the belief that their leader was the divinity in human form. Ismail I collected together a force of Turcomen, Talysh tribesmen, Circassians, and Georgians, and began building an empire. He fought against the remnants of the Timurid Empire, and increasingly came into conflict with the Ottomans, with whom the Safavids would fight a series of wars lasting until the fall of the empire in 1720, with a last resurgence until Abbas III was overthrown by the first of the Afsharids in 1736.

This list is confined to the earlier part of the period, more in keeping with the era covered by ADLG. After the defeat at Chaldiran in 1514 at the hands of the Ottomans, largely due to their use of gunpowder weapons, the Safavids adopted artillery. Later still, the army was reformed under Abaas the Great to embrace the ghilman system where ghulam soldiers from Circassia, Georgia, and Armenia provided a counter-balance to the Qizilbash factions which had been previously dominant. These changes included the creation of professional Tufangchis (musketeer) and Topchis (artillery) corps, as well as the establishment of a second ghulam cavalry force called the Qullar. These changes took place too late to be included in this list, which covers the period up through the ascension of Abbas the Great in 1589.

Qizilbash Nobles* (6-16 Units)

Medium cavalry bow impetuous (9)
Heavy cavalry bow impetuous (11)
Upgrade to elite (+2)
Upgrade to impact [max 4] (+1)

Persian, Georgian, or Circassian Feudal Retainers (0-6 Units)

Medium cavalry bow (9)
Heavy cavalry bow (11)

Kurds (0-4 units)

Medium cavalry impact (10)
Heavy cavalry impact (12)

Turkomans (0-6 Units)

Light cavalry bow (6)
Upgrade to elite (+1)
Medium cavalry bow (9)
Upgrade to elite (+2)

Talysh Militia (0-4 Units)
Bowmen (7)
Light infantry bow (4)

Afghan Auxiliaries (0-2 Units)
Light infantry firearm (4)
Upgrade to elite (+1)
Medium swordsmen (6)

Levy Spearmen (0-2 Units)
Levy (3)

Bombard [after 1514] (0-1 Unit)
Heavy artillery (10)
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 11, 2022 3:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is no such troop type as Cav Impetuous Bow in ADLG. (I’m not sure about the Renaissance version.)

You can have Cav Impact 1/2 Bw or Cav Impact Bw, but the later always has a maximum of 2 or 4 units. Impact 1/2 Bw is allowed only to Byzantine and Jurchen cavalry where the front 2-3 ranks have lances (and sometimes also bow or martiobarbuli) and the back 2-3 ranks have bow only - sometimes the bow armed guys skirmished ahead of the lancers.

Other elite bow armed cavalry with lances that charged furiously are graded as Cav Impetuous. These include Sogdians Chakars, Sarmatian cavalry and later Tibetans and I think Rajputs too. (Did Rajputs actually have bows?)

I suggest you make them Impetuous or Bow (maybe allowing a mix, but probably all/none as Bw) and allow some (2-4 max) guards, Ghulams or the like to be Elite Impact Bow.
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agregory
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 11, 2022 3:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD:

Let me ask you (I am really not much for writing lists, just using them):

- What I understand historically is that you had sometimes impactful but generally impetuous fanatic heavy and medium cavalry, armed with bow, sword, and sometimes lance. These guys came from a variety of backgrounds - some would be similar to Timurids, others not. The Qizilbash reflected their backgrounds in how they fought (the Safavids basically assimilated a number of different regional military traditions, unified by their fanaticism, not their origin or shared ethnic/national characteristics). They were distinct from the feudal cavalry they fought alongside, and distinct from the ghulams (who later made up a larger proportion of the force, but were present in small numbers early on).

I am thinking that some of them (up to 4) could be classed as impact, which would be the ones using lances.

Some would be bow-armed, meaning in game terms that they would not close for combat, but would prefer to stand off and shoot - hence the impossibility of them being impetuous.

Some would be impetuous but sword-armed, which would be impetuous heavy/medium cav.

These would not function as integrated units like the Byzantines or Jurchen, as I understand it, so not Impact 1/2 Bow.

So, I could reflect this as a mixture of MC/HC impact, MC/HC Bow, and MC/HC impetuous, of which some number could be classed as elite via an upgrade (0-4, probably).

My entry above would thus read:

Qizilbash Nobles* (6-16 Units)

Medium cavalry bow (9)
Heavy cavalry bow (11)
Medium cavalry impetuous (7)
Heavy cavalry impetuous (9)
Medium cavalry impact (9) [max 4]
Heavy cavalry impact (11) [max 4]
(No more than 4 units total may have impact)
Upgrade to elite (+2)

That seems very complicated, but it does define what I understand the historical mix to be.

Is there a better way to describe this for a list?

Cheers,

A. Gregory
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 12, 2022 12:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is no reason you couldn't have HC/MC Impetuous Bow even though there currently aren't any.

THere weren't any M Spear Impact either until v4.

It would be an interesting troop type....might be good might be just ok.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 12, 2022 1:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
True, but they are going to need some rules.

Can they evade, for example?
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 13, 2022 9:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
True, but they are going to need some rules.

Can they evade, for example?


See P. 47. As the rules are currently written they could not.
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agregory
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 14, 2022 2:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That makes sense. Impetuous troops will charge when they are able, and will not refuse a charge. They would use bows when an enemy moves up to them, shoot, and then charge in their own phase.

As I look more into the Safavid Qizilbash, I see very often pictures of troops equipped for melee (maces, swords, and often lances/long spears), many of whom also have bows. What strikes me is that the bow-armed figures are almost always also equipped with lances. They were famous for charging headlong into the enemy, firm in their belief in the invincibility of their leader and their own victory. Some came from military traditions which placed huge emphasis on the bow as the primary weapon of a warrior. They are often depicted firing on the charge (at least some of them).

If ever there was an historical case for impetuous bow cavalry, I think they would be it. I cannot imagine that this is a very common type, however!

And I am not at all sure that the depictions of them are a very reliable source, either...
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