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The end of shooting Cav armies
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danikine74
Archer


Inscrit le: 19 Mai 2015
Messages: 59
Localisation: montpon-menesterol
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 12:38 pm    Sujet du message: The end of shooting Cav armies Répondre en citant
Hi guys,

I've been à Cav player for long years, since my first ottoman army under WRG7 Ed....

I find it now rare and exotic

Do you regularly find Shootin cav armies to play against or with?

They have dissappear? Why? Too small table? Not enough playing time? Too expensive too little armies??

I used to be quite good player, I will end my life playing 34 cartaginian army soon...???
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 1:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I find that they still work on standard 200 point games. My skythians, all shooty including 12 light horse, 4 heavy cavalry bow won in Glasgow back in July
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
They are still fine.

Nik Sharpe came 4th in a very cavalry-unfriendly period in Warfare at the end of last year with Jurchen Jin http://artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8615&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 - having played against him, I can attest that they do still work !
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danikine74
Archer


Inscrit le: 19 Mai 2015
Messages: 59
Localisation: montpon-menesterol
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 2:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Frankly, I m losing faith, I find no sense in fielding more than 2 LH.

MC bow, shoot for nothing and evade till out of table

HC some shooting and a weak hope for not to break in hand to hand combat , against mostly heavier, and most times outnumbered...
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Longtooth
Signifer


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
Messages: 349
Localisation: Oxford
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 6:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think cavalry armies still work. You just need to be patient and take a few measured risks.

Whilst I agree that light horse are not great, they are still worth taking for the sake of winning the initiative roll. I like to hold my light horse back until the end game, when the enemy has become broken up.

Jesse
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 6:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I found a Hunnish army very unpleasant to face, with something like 3-4x MC bow, and 20? LC bow, possibly with a few elite. To be fair I had a Greek pike army with nellies, possibly the worst matchup. . . . 

Three to four wads of LC angled so they are shooting at small numbers of enemy and the markers start mounting rapidly. Manoeuvres on flanks, threatening the rear and camps etc. Very frustrating and nasty to deal with. 
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Cav-Bow armies are fine. What is not fine is a vision that you can simply ride around mindlessly shooting and never take a risk or engage in melee and emerge victorious...
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 15, 2022 2:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree. CAV bow armies are fine.

Perhaps you should place a hill in your own deployment area,
Your retreating Cav bow will have a combat bonus at their final fight
...or you simply evade off table to avoid 2 losses per unit

....or a field (with some bowmen inside)
to shoot at attacking HC impetuous....or to flank them
Bowmen mediocre increase your army breakpoint,
even if you do not use them in a battle

In addition I prefer to have 2-3 Levy mediocre expendable
..to break up the line of enemy HC impetuous into pieces
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 2:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mounted armies still work but lining up toe to toe does not work too well (unless you get lucky) and you can end up evading off the board as you said. You should try the Ottoman Empire list - never leave home without the Serbian Knights. The Janissaries give you some nice rough terrain troops plus some crap as filler to bring the army break point above 20. If are just using bow armed cavalry with the Ottomans personally you are not playing to the strengths of the army.

Personally winning with a all bow and cavalry army with 20 bases is a tough ask and requires more skill than I have but I like the Huns and Timurids so I take some impetuous heavy foot with the Huns and Elephants for the Timurids. These options give me some hitting power and I only have to skirmish with part of the army rather the whole army.
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danikine74
Archer


Inscrit le: 19 Mai 2015
Messages: 59
Localisation: montpon-menesterol
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 11:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I play ottoman empire since I was 18, now I'm 48.

Its because of my last games, but I find too expensive, 11 point for jennisaries, cavalry even reducing quality, 9 points only for evade for hours, most enemies field more inist , cheaper units and better units.

I find myself fighting foes with more knights, that hardly loose formation, that generally once they get into close combat, yes table is only 80cm, they smash, they certainly takes some hits, but cavalry Med or heavy hardly, or really lucky survives 1 turn without suffering hits, subsequent turns you ar doomed, hits taken, overlapped...

I I'm having faith crise in cavalry,.... I can have HC impact bow elite... yes at 14 points cost. 2 stands, enemy ussulay has 6 to 8 knights, more knights than I cavalry, I m ussulay poshed out of the table.

Jennisaries... simple MI impact efaces me from the table , HI with some LI crushes them. By the time I clear or take some terrain my cavs are out of the table....
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 11:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Have you ever played the 2 Warwagon together with 2 Heavy Spearmen or 2 Heavy Swordmen Polearm?

I also find the Janissaries expensive, but if you attach a general or even 2 to them, they are also invincible against swordmen Impact in terrain.
I might even go for 4 janissaries and then fight more in bad terrain than in open terrain.
...or circle with your Cav Bow around your central warwagons.

You also probably need to play all the brilliant generals strategists as free commanders so you can rally better.
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 11:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Have you ever played the 2 Warwagen together with 2 Heavy Spearmen or 2 Heavy Swordmen Polearm?

...or with 8 fortifications?

I also find the Janissaries expensive, but if you attach a general or even 2 to them, they are invincible against swordmen Impact in terrain too
I might even go for 4 janissaries and then fight more in bad terrain than in open terrain.
...or circle with your Cav Bow around your central wargwagons.

You also probably need to play all the brilliant generals strategists as free commanders so you can rally better.
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 3:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have looked at your List Ottoman Empire again.

Have you tried to play with Serbian Allies? 1458 AD
You can have up to 8 Heavy Knights impetuous
... and you could even take the 2 warwagons (after 1441) to protect the flank of these Serbian knights.

I really like the 2 warwagons. Form a column with them
and devide the battlefield into two sectors with them.

On one flank you can advance with the Serbians
on the other flank you retreat with you own MC bow untill
your Azabs bowmen (behind obstacles) and the warwagons can shoot at the advancing enemy.

... and finally your MC can evade to the other (offensive) flank instead of leaving the table
You can even open a gap between the column of warwagons and charge with your 2 HC impact through this gap.
or retreat through this gap

I would not take the Janissaries.
Perhaps they should first get muskets
Very Happy
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 3:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
Personally winning with a all bow and cavalry army with 20 bases is a tough ask and requires more skill than I have but I like the Huns and Timurids so I take some impetuous heavy foot with the Huns and Elephants for the Timurids. These options give me some hitting power and I only have to skirmish with part of the army rather the whole army.


If you want to go all mounted (+/- some LI Bow perhaps) Mongol Conquest is the list you want. You really need the Elite HC Bow Impact for an all mounted list. I can be pretty frightening to play against if you are careful in running it.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 6:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
I can be pretty frightening to play against

Awwwww....you're not that bad!
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