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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 12:27 am Sujet du message: definition of height advantage on a hill |
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Page 71 says simply that a unit gains a +1 if higher on a hill.
Page 64 gives a precise definition, but one limited by the assumption that the unit is fighting through its front edge.
Citation: |
A unit has the height advantage if it is entirely on the hill and if either the highest point or the crest line of the hill is located behind the line that extends its front edge.
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Common sense page 71 should prevail and that page 64 should be understood as extends the edges in contact.
But perhaps being attacked in the flank or rear should negate the height advantage?
Also, is it common sense that a unit must have a height advantage over all its opponents rather than just the main unit? |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 1:47 am Sujet du message: |
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I understand the point you make, but "Them's the rules" as others might say.
Basically a decision was taken to ignore all abilities and factors of units in Melee support, mainly because this was found to be too powerfull if everything was included. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 2:38 am Sujet du message: |
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I think you are anticipating another, rather interesting set of quesitons.
What I actually had in mind was something like.
A is higher than 2 (* being the hill top), but 1 is higher than A.
So does A get a +1?
Does 1 get a +1? |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 2:58 am Sujet du message: |
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Like I said, only those units that are deemed to be "in melee", as defined on P60, consider special abilities and any other melee modifiers. Unit(s) that are in melee support only add +1 and their Base factor.
While it might seem to be a good idea to try to consider other factors like the supporting units being uphill, these are ignored until the original enemy is destroyed and the uphill unit becomes the Main unit in that particular melee.
Them's the rules . . . .
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 3:30 am Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | Like I said, only those units that are deemed to be "in melee", as defined on P60, consider special abilities and any other melee modifiers. Unit(s) that are in melee support only add +1 and their Base factor.
While it might seem to be a good idea to try to consider other factors like the supporting units being uphill, these are ignored until the original enemy is destroyed and the uphill unit becomes the Main unit in that particular melee.
Them's the rules . . . .
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What happens if the hill top is behind both unit’s front edge because the “uphill†unit is charging downhill into the rear of its enemy?
^^^^
AAAAA
^^^^
11111
Hilltop
Everyone facing the top of the page.
A is hit in the rear by 1 but the hilltop is behind A’s front edge. 1 gets the hill bonus. But does A get the hill bonus? It seems like it should not but the rules seem to read that it does…. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 4:49 am Sujet du message: |
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Yeah this is the case where common sense and page 71 should rule. Unit 1 is higher than unit A and should get the +1.
The case where both are facing uphill (Unit A is attacking the rear of Unit 1) is the more difficult question. Unit 1 is still higher than Unit A. Neither qualify according to page 64. Shouuld unit 1 get the +1 just as it does in the downhill example? or does being attacked on the rear disqualify it?
Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Ven Déc 17, 2021 5:14 am; édité 1 fois |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 4:51 am Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | Like I said, only those units that are deemed to be "in melee", as defined on P60, consider special abilities and any other melee modifiers. Unit(s) that are in melee support only add +1 and their Base factor.
While it might seem to be a good idea to try to consider other factors like the supporting units being uphill, these are ignored until the original enemy is destroyed and the uphill unit becomes the Main unit in that particular melee.
Them's the rules . . . .
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Yeah no +1 for unit 1. Shouldn't have posted after that glass of brandy...
But is unit A higher than its opponent(s)? I see doubt here. |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 445
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 9:02 am Sujet du message: |
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Guys has this situation ever come up in a game of ADLG you have actually played? You do play games don’t you, and not simply spend time posting obscure theoretical rules scenarios? 🤔 |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 3:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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KevinD a écrit: | What happens if the hill top is behind both unit’s front edge because the “uphill†unit is charging downhill into the rear of its enemy?
^^^^
AAAAA
^^^^
11111
Hilltop
Everyone facing the top of the page.
A is hit in the rear by 1 but the hilltop is behind A’s front edge. 1 gets the hill bonus. But does A get the hill bonus? It seems like it should not but the rules seem to read that it does…. | Kevin, we are comparing two units to see which has the height advantage . . .
And Za Otlichiye, I see brandy here . . . |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1546
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 4:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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No problem exists until imaginations invent that which is not. Then they develop more tortured problems. |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 5:02 pm Sujet du message: |
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Gentlemen. ADLG is a set of rules written to play quick, fun games. While I have no problem helping to explain the more complex points of the rules, personally, I am starting to find your "how many angels can dance on a pinhead" philosophical dissertations a tad wearisome.
In case of doubt or conflict in a game, I refer you to p11 and the disputes section. For theoretical delirium please use the "Other topics" section. Thank you. |
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Longtooth
Signifer
Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014 Messages: 350
Localisation: Oxford
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 6:01 pm Sujet du message: |
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Amen, brother!! |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 7:15 pm Sujet du message: |
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R II,
If I were asked, stone cold sober, rule book in hand, to arbitrate the above, I would have a hard time.
That said you make an excellent argument. What is somewhat unique about this situation is that it is relative to both sides. Thinking about it, the best analogy is armor advantage. There a supporting unit might have better armor, but it is ignored. Only the main units are compared. So that's a point for you.
That would also suggest the uphill flank/rear attack would not negate the +1 of the enemy. The terrain advantage is inherent and not something canceled like a special ability.
---
And merry Saturnalia to the rest of you. Looks like you could use it. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1474
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Dim Déc 19, 2021 11:23 am Sujet du message: |
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Za Otlichiye a écrit: | Page 71 says simply that a unit gains a +1 if higher on a hill.
Page 64 gives a precise definition, but one limited by the assumption that the unit is fighting through its front edge.
Citation: |
A unit has the height advantage if it is entirely on the hill and if either the highest point or the crest line of the hill is located behind the line that extends its front edge.
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Common sense page 71 should prevail and that page 64 should be understood as extends the edges in contact. |
Yes, that whole "common sense" thing is a great idea.
Looking at the two units and seeing which one is actually higher is also a very good rule of thumb to use when deciding which one is higher.
Za Otlichiye a écrit: | But perhaps being attacked in the flank or rear should negate the height advantage?
Also, is it common sense that a unit must have a height advantage over all its opponents rather than just the main unit? |
This is the v4 rules thread.
There is currently no "Massively Corner Case Ideas To Add Pointless Complexity For No Discernable Gain to An As Yet Unplanned v5 As Suggested By People Who Clearly Spend Far More Time Parsing The Rulebook Than Actually Playing" sub-section on this forum. Ideas like this may therefore be best held back until the forum administrator adds an appropriate sub-forum for them to be submitted to. _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 347
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Posté le: Dim Déc 19, 2021 4:58 pm Sujet du message: |
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Height advantage on a hill is one of the MOST contentious things I have ever seen debated in ancients rules across multiple rules sets. The ADLG solution might not be perfect but it is generally at least pretty clear - which IMO is worthwhile. I at one point advocated for something even simpler and more abstract to make it even clearer...Yes it possibly can create odd situations where "that doesn't look like it is uphill to me" happens - but the rule is till clear (especially in conjunction with the rules on what a hill must contain, peak and crest line). Probably there is still some room in there for an umpire to rule particularly "clever" pieces illegal but that is always a thing without requiring topologically painful definitions of terrain to be written.
I will note I once umpired a tournament and had the argument presented to me that "there is no possibly position on this hill where anyone can claim a height advantage" and that was in reference to a piece the opponent had created and placed.... |
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