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Charging the most threatening enemy
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 17, 2021 10:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have to agree with Lionelrus that in this case, the rules are clear; when charging, the only movements allowed are to become more aligned before contacting the enemy.

The discussions originally centered on the 'difference' on P36 between bullet point 2 which mentions sliding as part of a charge, and BP3 which mentions advancing, wheeling and turning to become more closely aligned.
  • No one has mentioned that a charge is a 'special movement', so must be subject to BP2 as well as BP3.
  • I explained that BP3 applies to all movements in the enemy ZoC, while BP2 only applies to charges - ie, a unit may not slide in a ZoC except when charging into contact.
  • I also explained previously that BP2 restates the text from P30 where the usual restriction applying to a slide to make a 1UD advance, is exempted when in an enemy ZoC.
  • As to the various diagrams, they are all correct; in each case, the units make a turn to move into contact with the enemy unit that ZoCs it - all following BP3.
    I should also point out that in the case of the MI in the EXAMPLE OF ZOC, in order to charge D the MI may slide or wheel. And if the MI wheels as part of a charge, it would contact the LI first giving the LI the option to stand or evade.
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 18, 2021 2:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II, I wonder why you don't understand that you give a contradictory answer. If all restrictions on BP3 apply also to a charge, then the sub-bullet of BP3 'No point of the unit's front edge that was in a ZOC can leave it' should also apply during a charge, and I gave you a number of examples-pictures in the book that this restriction is not followed. So, either the pictures are wrong or the rule is not interpreted correctly.
Moreover , you admit that the MI in the EXAMPLE OF ZOC is allowed to wheel in order to charge the Cv unit D and as a result it will contact LI unless this evades. But MI is ZOCed only by unit D, is totally parallel to it, D is the most threatening enemy of it and MI by wheeling to charge, becomes LESS aligned to D. So, how do you believe that the restrictions on BP3 apply to this charge? Honestly, you confuse me my friend. No intention to be aggressive or confrontational, truly confused and nothing more. Smile
PS. Not to mention (and really don't want to start a new debate about it) but a unit that only makes a slide in an enemies ZoC that is not also followed by a wheel, CAN'T become more aligned to it. The author on page 36 bullet 3 , sub bullet 1 defines alignment as ' the angle formed between their fronts' (the fronts of the two units ). That angle, no matter how much you slide, remains the same. So alignment doesn't change when you slide. What changes is that the charging unit becomes mostly in front of the target unit than before. The alignment changes if you also wheel but lets not stick to that detail.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 18, 2021 9:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok, I have to apologise, Harry, I got the note about the MI wheeling wrong. My only excuse is that we are all learning the details about reacting to the most threatening enemy. It seems that the permitted manoeuvres are more constrained than they seem at first glance.
However I contend that BP2 and BP3 both apply when moving towards the MTE. So, in the EXAMPLE OF ZOC, the MI may only advance towards or charge unit D (including a slide), and I agree that the MI may NOT wheel or turn since this would leave the MI less 'aligned' ie no longer parallel.

However, I still think you are mistaken about the diagrams. Where some part of the front edge is within an enemy ZoC, the unit can only wheel towards the MTE (keeping that part of the front edge in the ZoC). But where the ZoC covers the flank / rear of a unit, then it must turn (and wheel as necessary) to become more aligned (thus letting the front edge enter the ZoC).

One last thought. In this example, the MI charge D which seems to be aligned with the LI in terrain. Sliding seems to be optional, so if D does not slide and the LI do not evade, D will contact both the enemy MI and the LI, but will have more frontage in contact with the LI - so presumably would conform with that unit instead . . . ??
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 19, 2021 9:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II, (what is your first name? Smile ), I totally agree with you with whatever you wrote about charges with a 90 or 180 turn and necessary wheels to become more aligned and charge. I don't have any objection if the BP2 and BP3 both apply on charges, but when a new player (or old enough) reads the rules, some obscure areas still exist. 1.The fact that the charge is not mentioned also on BP3 (it looks as though the whole BP3 refers to movement without charging).
2.The following diagrams: (I give page and title in capitals) OTHER EXAMPLE, page 50. 'A1 enters first the ZOC of B1 and must therefore conform to B1' Here we see that the A1 cavalry unit's front, partly exits the ZOC of B1 when makes contact with it. So, that's against PB3, sub bullet 3, page 36.
AMBIGUOUS CONFORMATION, page54.'Unit B charges A1 without entering terrain. A1 is the most threatening enemy and B must attempt to conform to A1'. Here we also see that cavalry B unit has to partly exit with its front the ZOC of A1, in order to contact it.
ADVANCE IN A ZOC, page 36. 'A2 could also advance straight ahead to charge B2 and conform it' That is a very strong example of a straight forward charge that makes a part of A2's front to partly exit the ZOC of B2, before contact. I seriously doubt that this phrase just escaped the attention of the author, because just on the previous sentences the author explains why the A2 unit has to stop moving at the point where its front begins to leave the ZOC of B2. And right after says, it can charge B2 straight forward.
So, what I say is that we need a clarification. That's all. Νo attempt to bend the rules or the author's intention. Some explanation is needed though.
As for the diagram EXAMPLE OF ZOC on page 38, since the MI unit has Cavalry D unit as the most threatening enemy, even if when contact occurs, most of its front contacts the LI unit, the MI HAS to conform on the Cv unit D. Nowhere else.(see OTHER EXAMPLE,page 50, A1 aligns to B1, not to B2).
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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