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Charging the most threatening enemy
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 9:32 am    Sujet du message: Charging the most threatening enemy Répondre en citant
This is a serious question, please read the post and the rulebook before you answer.
Unit A is ZoCed by unit B which is the most threatening enemy to A. A and B are parallel and looking to each other. If unit A wants to charge and contact unit B are you 100% sure that unit A can't declare the charge with a wheel (becoming less aligned to B but with the intention to end in contact with the front of B and then conform)? Why I ask that:
1. On page 43, Direction of the charge, 3rd bullet : 'The charge direction must respect the ZoC of the most threatening enemy, see page 35'
2. Same page 43, Charge movement, bullet 4 :'Charge movement must comply with ZoC rules, page 35'

All the rules refer to page 35-36 and the ZoC of the most threatening enemy. If we go there we read:
1.Page 36, 'The only movements allowed in the ZoC of the most threatening enemy are:
2nd bullet: 'Charge the most threatening enemy. If needed, the unit can slide inside the ZoC to align and contact the most threatening enemy.'
That seems to be the only condition necessary when in the ZoC of the MTE. Everything else ( wheel to align, move with the front not exciting even partly the MTE's ZoC, etc.. seem to apply when the unit doesn't come in contact with the target unit but wants to make a legal move in its ZoC.
Moreover on page 36 ADVANCE IN A ZOC picture, we clearly see that unit A2 can enter the ZoC of unit B2 in order to make contact , with its front partly exciting while moving the ZoC of B2, but that is legal since it charges to make contact. The same on page 50, OTHER EXAMPLE with unit A1. Same partly exciting the ZoC's of B1, since it contacts it.
So I'm very interested to know how do you play that charge in France, since I believe you can have a better knowledge of the details of the rules.
Many thanks in advance.
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 4:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No you can't...

page 36 is clear: when in zoc you only can:

* stay here.
* charge the most threatening enemy( MTE), possibly with a slide to align.
* move to become MORE aligned or/and close of the MTE. In this case you can't be less aligned,
or farther from the MTE front, or quit the zoc, or sliding, and you must advance on a path that could contact the MTE front.
* extend or contract as a group (and nobody can quit the zoc this way)
*quit the zoc by your rear.

So if A and B are facing each other and parallel, there is no way that A can wheel. A must charge face sthraight ahead. If you ant to wheel, you must do tht before entering the zoc.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 5:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree as long as you charge the most threatening enemy there is no written prohibition on wheeling in that first bullet point. However I cannot believe that this is the intention or expectation. I would be happy if any tournament umpire refused to allow such a wheel designed ti become less alignedL

Ps as you are charging the most threatening unit, and will align on contact what is the benefit of the wheel to become less aligned? Are you preparing the charger to hit a different unit if the most threatening enemy evades? In that case it could be argued that you are not trying to “target the most threatening enemy†(last paragraph after 5 bullet points), but instead target someone else exposed if it evades.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 5:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree as long as you charge the most threatening enemy there is no written prohibition on wheeling in that first bullet point. However I cannot believe that this is the intention or expectation.

Ps as you are charging the unit, and will align on contact what is the benefit of the wheel to become less aligned? Are you preparing the charger to hit a different unit if the most threatening enemy evades?
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 7:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett, exactly. I was thinking that maybe during a charge to make contact and not just move in the MTE's ZoC, the author accepts the idea that a charging unit might prefer to charge a non evader more precious target. The evader maybe tried to lure that unit away of that target, but still this can be done under conditions, since the charging unit can wheel (up to a point where the evade unit still remains his first target) and if the evader chooses to evade, the charge may continue against the second (initially intended) target. It was just an idea, when I saw in the pictures that during a charge to contact, the partial exciting of the front of the charger from the MTE's ZoC is legal. Then, if that is legal, why not and everything else? Just a thought though, I don't insist.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 7:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
I agree as long as you charge the most threatening enemy there is no written prohibition on wheeling in that first bullet point. However I cannot believe that this is the intention or expectation.

Ps as you are charging the unit, and will align on contact what is the benefit of the wheel to become less aligned? Are you preparing the charger to hit a different unit if the most threatening enemy evades?


The fact the author chooses to give explicit permission for a slide, and even then adds the caveat of "if necessary to align", very strongly implies that any other shenanigans other than a charge straight ahead is not permitted.

Add in the fact there's a whole page of ZoC rules prohibiting you doing anything like this when starting ZoCces and "not" charging and the weight of evidence does start to stack up rather heavily on one side of this question.

Inferring "Authors intent" is a very dubious road to go down, but there also comes a point at which we all do need to take some collective responsibility for reading the rules with a mindset of seeing only what's there and accepting it - especially when the simple answer also is one that makes the game easier to play for all concerned - rather than looking for everything that's not.
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guineu
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2014
Messages: 19
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 8:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Totally agree
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 9:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
I agree as long as you charge the most threatening enemy there is no written prohibition on wheeling in that first bullet point. However I cannot believe that this is the intention or expectation.

Ps as you are charging the unit, and will align on contact what is the benefit of the wheel to become less aligned? Are you preparing the charger to hit a different unit if the most threatening enemy evades?


The written prohibition is that the OP said the two units are in face and parallels. ANY wheel will make them LESS aligned, which is prohibited.
The "I make a wheel to charge with A and when B evade, A will pursue and contact C " move can only be taken when A starts the charge outside of B's zoc.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 9:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
fdunadan a écrit:

The written prohibition is that the OP said the two units are in face and parallels. ANY wheel will make them LESS aligned, which is prohibited.
The "I make a wheel to charge with A and when B evade, A will pursue and contact C " move can only be taken when A starts the charge outside of B's zoc.


I absolutely agree that a wheel in a ZoC to become less aligned should not be allowed. However I can see no such words on the bullet point covering a CHARGE to contact. I can only see it in the BP covering an ADVANCE without contact. I am therefore very interested to understand where you have found this prohibition.


Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Juin 25, 2021 7:20 am; édité 6 fois
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 10:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
harryKonst a écrit:
Mike Bennett, exactly. I was thinking that maybe during a charge to make contact and not just move in the MTE's ZoC, the author accepts the idea that a charging unit might prefer to charge a non evader more precious target. The evader maybe tried to lure that unit away of that target, but still this can be done under conditions, since the charging unit can wheel (up to a point where the evade unit still remains his first target) and if the evader chooses to evade, the charge may continue against the second (initially intended) target. It was just an idea, when I saw in the pictures that during a charge to contact, the partial exciting of the front of the charger from the MTE's ZoC is legal. Then, if that is legal, why not and everything else? Just a thought though, I don't insist.


The examples quoted on leaving ZoCs in a charge are to avoid some very silly situations were otherwise perfectly reasonable charges would be prohibited, eg by a group not parallel to the target group.
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 6:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok, now I have to insist. All the restrictions on page 36 (3rd bullet) are referring when moving in the most threatening's enemy ZoC. When charging you are free to make whatever you like, even wheeling when already in the ZoC of the other unit and parallel with it.
Guys, it seems we all got it wrong at the beginning. Lets correct it now! The proof is given by the author in the book:
Page 38, EXAMPLE OF ZOC picture: See unit M1 , is 100% parallel and Zoced by CV unit D. The author says: 'The MI also exerts a ZoC on the cavalry unit D and vise versa. The medium swordsmen MI can perform A WHEEL and advance toward cavalry D or SLIDE to charge it.'
You need other proof than that?
Please if the author or other participants in the DT, read this post, can you confirm (or reject) it?
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 11:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
harryKonst a écrit:
Ok, now I have to insist. All the restrictions on page 36 (3rd bullet) are referring when moving in the most threatening's enemy ZoC. When charging you are free to make whatever you like, even wheeling when already in the ZoC of the other unit and parallel with it.
Guys, it seems we all got it wrong at the beginning. Lets correct it now! The proof is given by the author in the book:
Page 38, EXAMPLE OF ZOC picture: See unit M1 , is 100% parallel and Zoced by CV unit D. The author says: 'The MI also exerts a ZoC on the cavalry unit D and vise versa. The medium swordsmen MI can perform A WHEEL and advance toward cavalry D or SLIDE to charge it.'
You need other proof than that?
Please if the author or other participants in the DT, read this post, can you confirm (or reject) it?

Believe it or not this isn't a new issue. It came up several times in the early years of V3. Along with other problems some of us English speakers were having with the ZoC rules generally. The ruling then was clear:

    A unit in a ZoC can't wheel to become less aligned to its MTE, not even in a charge.

I suspect it's so obvious in the French understanding of the ZoC rule as to not need an extra clause.

That said:

I don't think the diagram proves your point.

Because:

It's a demonstration of a special case where a slide or wheel is necessary to charge the MTE. It explains how the new rule overcomes the problem in V3 where the MI could neither slide nor wheel out of alignment and therefore couldn't charge the Cav.

In V4 the MI can slide and charge the Cav thus avoiding the LI [which isn't its MTE]. Or it can make a slight wheel towards the LI so it will hit the Cav first and conform. It would have to wheel if there was an obstacle preventing it sliding.

It has to wheel or slide because it's not allowed to contact the LI.

BTW, it seems to be under Exceptions to ZoC. But that doesn't really make a difference to the argument.
_____________

Okay, by a "plain English" reading of the rules you are right. (probably, I'm no expert) Irritating? Definitely. Believe me I know Embarassed

Just now we're finding a few cases where plain English doesn't say what the rules mean (anyone who disagrees can bite me Twisted Evil ). Which is to be expected - new version, translated from French into three languages, of which English has the least in common with the original.

The DT have other jobs (some might even have lives Wink ) and will need time to reach a consensus on how to word their decisions. They'll reply I'm sure.

Meantime, play it your way or play it ours, but have fun.

Dave
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 12:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dave , thank you for your friendly and polite answer. I play the game so far the way we all did. Straight forward charge when in the ZoC and being parallel to the target. But the example on page 38 is exactly the core of our discussion. I gave so far 3 examples from the book that appears the author to break his own rules! Can anyone seriously believe that this is the case? All the pictures are wrong, or he did this trying to prevent people from doing silly things? Isn't more rational to think that WE the readers, understand something wrong? When we decide that no restriction applies to the charger when he charges the Most Threatening Enemy, everything fits. The funny is that from some followers of the forum appears like I am the one who make assumptions for the author's intention and not all those who can't explain with solid and strong arguments what those pictures tell us. It a pitty. I wish to have an official answer, because I am the usual umpire in Strategikon, our Athenian Club and I really want to know the rules, not negotiate with people about them and throw dice to produce answers.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 1:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Harry,

I'd hoped to see you, Greg and the others in Patras last weekend, but it wasn't to be Crying or Very sad

This will be resolved, but I think the process is about making sure the answers don't create more problems. If you see what I mean. So it may take a week or two.

For now, I don't envy your role as umpire, maybe by the time I get to Greece (or you to London) we'll all know where we stand.

Dave
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 4:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
PS If it helps, we have a tournament this weekend and I hope the umpires will take a pragmatic approach to ZoCs* while waiting for word from on high.

* Allowing turns and wheels as per V3, and restricting charge wheels similarly, with the exception of strange positions like that on pages 37 & 38.
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