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Unit entering Most Threatening's Enemy ZoC
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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harryKonst
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Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 11:22 am    Sujet du message: Unit entering Most Threatening's Enemy ZoC Répondre en citant
https://imgur.com/a/oTZx7mU

https://imgur.com/a/o7PXp0p

A Knight unit did a wheel outside the ZoC of an enemy Cavalry and moved straight forward in the Cavalry's Zone Of Control, respecting the following conditions;
1.The front edge of the Knight entered more and more the Cv's Zoc and no part of it was exciting the Zoc.
2. The Knight had a direction that would contact the front of the Cv if the move was continued till contact.
3.A part of the front base of the Cv was always 'in front ' of the Knight.
4. The Knight stopped just before contacting the Cavalry
Do you believe there is something illegal with that move? Do you believe that there was a change in the alignment of the Knight unit during that move?
Thanks.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 2:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
What's rules says?

Offering flank to cv's charging may have little interest..
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fdunadan
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 3:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Move is legal.
What's the point? not enough movement to reach the Cav? wanting to be closer for a subsequent charge?
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 3:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
fdunadan a écrit:
Move is legal.
What's the point? not enough movement to reach the Cav? wanting to be closer for a subsequent charge?

Giving a free flank attack to epponent, it seemed...
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gelin
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 09 Oct 2017
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 4:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
fdunadan a écrit:
Move is legal.
What's the point? not enough movement to reach the Cav? wanting to be closer for a subsequent charge?

Giving a free flank attack to epponent, it seemed...


That is not the question. We want to find out if the Knight can enter the Cav zoc, cross it up to a point that he can zoc the LH and still comply to all zoc rules.

Note that the Knight is entering at a slight angle towards the cav. So in photo B, the Knight's left corner is intented to end just before Cavs left corner at a very small angle so that the Knight's front "looks" at least by a margin towards Cavs front with the intention of zocing the LH.

Harry argues that the Knight can cross the Cav's zoc up to this position. My take is that this end position is less aligned with the Cav than when the Knight fully entered Cav's zoc


Dernière édition par gelin le Lun Juin 21, 2021 5:29 pm; édité 3 fois
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 4:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I ZoCed both the Cv which was the most threatening enemy and a L.Cv beside it. I didn't give a flank charge on the knight Lionelrus. The Cv was still partly in front of Knight.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 6:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As Lionelrus says, the move is legal.

Essentially the players must check the movement of the Kn with respect to the most threatening enemy (the Cv). In doing this the Kn can be offset or moving at an angle to the Cv, which means that the ZoC of the Kn can cover a second enemy unit, restricting the subsequent movement of that unit. 
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 7:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
gelin a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:
fdunadan a écrit:
Move is legal.
What's the point? not enough movement to reach the Cav? wanting to be closer for a subsequent charge?

Giving a free flank attack to epponent, it seemed...


That is not the question. We want to find out if the Knight can enter the Cav zoc, cross it up to a point that he can zoc the LH and still comply to all zoc rules.

Note that the Knight is entering at a slight angle towards the cav. So in photo B, the Knight's left corner is intented to end just before Cavs left corner at a very small angle so that the Knight's front "looks" at least by a margin towards Cavs front with the intention of zocing the LH.

Harry argues that the Knight can cross the Cav's zoc up to this position. My take is that this end position is less aligned with the Cav than when the Knight fully entered Cav's zoc


alignement doesn't change during the mouve
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Dernière édition par lionelrus le Lun Juin 21, 2021 7:18 pm; édité 1 fois
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 9:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed, this tactic will have little effect on LC or LI. When the Cv charge the Kn and conform, the light troops will be displaced backwards but can then move. (Or they can move as a group).

However, if the Kn displace heavier units backwards, these would not be allowed to do anything else. So, both units would need to charge the Kn, if possible, which may be less advantageous. 
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 21, 2021 9:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Agreed, this tactic will have little effect on LC or LI. When the Cv charge the Kn and conform, the light troops will be displaced backwards but can then move. (Or they can move as a group).

However, if the Kn displace heavier units backwards, these would not be allowed to do anything else. So, both units would need to charge the Kn, if possible, which may be less advantageous. 


yes, but it's only works if they're no other unit around to outflanking Kn.
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harryKonst
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 22, 2021 7:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It has a good effect on certain situations. In our example for instance, the Cv was evader, so the Kn could never catch it. So by ZoCing both Cv and L.Cv they should either charge the Kn, both or just the Cv and the L.Cv was left alone to do something else, or they should both exit the Knight's Zoc by evading. One way or another they( the Cv and the L.CV) wouldn't be able to participate in more crucial battles that were taking place nearby.
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harryKonst
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 22, 2021 7:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Forgot to tell, that if the two units were heavier, when the first charges the ZoCer, the other is displaced during conforming so it cannot move. I believe that tactic has serious advantages in certain situations.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 22, 2021 5:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
harryKonst a écrit:
Forgot to tell, that if the two units were heavier, when the first charges the ZoCer, the other is displaced during conforming so it cannot move. I believe that tactic has serious advantages in certain situations.


All tactics have advantages in certain situations, and any element- or unit-based game where units have fixed footprints will have some geometrical quirks. It’s a little annoying but sadly true. 

The real question is always whether these geometrically quirky tactics have easily achievable, commonly occurring, risk-free, game-breaking advantages.

I’m personally unconvinced that advancing across the front of an enemy unit at a shallow angle in order to ZoC another (heavy) unit meets the second set of criteria, even if it arguably meets the first one...
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harryKonst
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 22, 2021 6:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If you look at the second picture you will see that even if the Knight charged in a more common angle, let's say 45 degrees the result wouldn't be much different. Since the Knight unit moves from the right side of the Cv against it, still a small part of its ZoC will project . and will ZoC an enemy unit beside. So what's the problem? It will happen to anyone of us and is just another result of the rules. If it suits as a tactic you use it. It's not a gamebreaker. But I also don't see it as unacceptable.
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