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Artillery turning to fight
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 11:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Loved the reply, Lionelrus  Very Happy

Going through the situation point by point
  1. Player A charges the impetuous MI into one of two Light Art resulting in their unsurprising demise.

    P62 says that impetuous units must pursue, excepting after destroying enemy artillery. 
    Player A chooses to pursue ending in side to side contact with the second artillery 


    As Madaxman says, the MI may NOT choose to conform in this case. They are corner to corner with this unit, they do have the enemy front edge in contact with their flank / rear.
    (FAQ, timing of conformation, 2nd bullet)


  2. Player B starts with the Light Artillery in side to side contact (or corner to corner, it is immaterial). 
    It may NOT conform, move or charge into contact with enemy (rules p52, contact restrictions). The fact that it is already ‘in contact’ makes no difference - essentially the unit may not initiate combat with an enemy unit or even move into support. 

    Indeed there is a case for suggesting that mobile artillery should behave like LI and move 1UD away under these circumstances. 
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 2:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Lionelrus, thank you for your helpful response.

"WWG and ART units never conform. "

So the Art cannot move to make the fight happen, and they cannot conform to fight.
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 3:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You learn something everyday I was not aware of the rule that impetuous troops did not have to pursue after eliminating artillery.

As the phasing player the impetuous swordsmen eliminate the first artillery base and is corner to corner contact with the second artillery base. On pg 55 Conforming after a melee the third paragraph. Conforming like this (still in contact with an enemy without being in melee) is not compulsory except for impetuous troops subject to an uncontrolled charge. I would have thought the impetuous swordsmen would still be force to conform to the artillery because it is not an exception to uncontrolled charges. In this situation the swordsmen can not pursue they must conform to the second artillery base or if you go with the option they do not have to pursue because they eliminated artillery then they stay still. Either way the swordsmen can never end up in side to side contact with the second artillery base.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 8:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The FAQ p18 Timing of conformation clarifies those points when conformation takes place.

The section “conformation after a melee†on p55 is a little confusing. There are effectively two points ‘after the melee’, and they are considered slightly differently:-
  • At the end of his turn, the phasing player must consider whether to pursue. P62 Pursuit only kicks in if the unit has “routed ALL enemies that were in meleeâ€.
    If the unit is still in melee (has a unit in frontal contact with its flank or rear), it conforms with that enemy irrespective of whether it belongs to the phasing player or not.  
  • At the start of the following turn, those units that are in contact but not in melee may conform per p55. If not impetuous, such units may move elsewhere, or even (RAW) remain in contact but not in melee.


So here the Impetuous MI, having routed the enemy to its front and thus no longer being in melee, must either pursue (except etc) or stay put; it may not slide sideways to conform. That choice is only available to the Light Artillery (which as Lionelrus says are prohibited from doing).
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
You learn something everyday I was not aware of the rule that impetuous troops did not have to pursue after eliminating artillery.

As the phasing player the impetuous swordsmen eliminate the first artillery base and is corner to corner contact with the second artillery base. On pg 55 Conforming after a melee the third paragraph. Conforming like this (still in contact with an enemy without being in melee) is not compulsory except for impetuous troops subject to an uncontrolled charge. I would have thought the impetuous swordsmen would still be force to conform to the artillery because it is not an exception to uncontrolled charges. In this situation the swordsmen can not pursue they must conform to the second artillery base or if you go with the option they do not have to pursue because they eliminated artillery then they stay still. Either way the swordsmen can never end up in side to side contact with the second artillery base.


I see what you mean - does the Impetuous unit end up in a position where if it counts as having "pursued", it would have ended that "pursuit-without-moving" in corner-to-corner contact with a new enemy, which is one of the (very few) situations in which conforming happens immediately after combat rather than in the following turn.

I think the answer is still "no, there is no conforming at this time" however. This is on the basis of the Pursuit section on p62, where it is very clear that Pursuit is mandatory for Impetuous units ... except in the following circumstances;"


Put more simply, destroying artillery is a situation in which there is simply no "pursuit", so after destroying artillery there is no option to do any of the conform-ey things that can happen after "pursuit".


(It's actually amazing how often that you can go down a bit of a rabbit hole with these rules and end up finding that the situation you're looking at is actually covered already ... !_
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 3:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
You learn something everyday I was not aware of the rule that impetuous troops did not have to pursue after eliminating artillery.


And foot impetuous did not have to pursue after killing mounted troops.
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 07, 2020 10:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am do not trying to be difficult I just want to understand why you give pg 62 precedence of pg 55? If you give pg 62 precedence over pg 55 then you do not need those first three paragraphs as that situation will never occur?

The FAQ clearly states you can conform after melee (in bold) but you are saying no "after melee" means it occurs at the beginning of the next turn? Note the last sentence in bold "The conformation then replaces the pursuit"

Timing of conformation
Q : When can the units conform ?
A : Conformation can happen in 4 cases :
 Just after a charge, to align with the enemy.
Just after a melee if a unit routs the opponent on its front and there is another opponent whose front
is in contact with the unit’s flank or rear (as per p54). The conformation then replaces the pursuit.


For the record I think these rules are the best set of ancient rules I have played.


Dernière édition par Black Prince le Jeu Oct 08, 2020 6:50 am; édité 1 fois
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 1:51 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup, you have grasped the concept. While the melee occurs during one player’s turn, the term ‘after the melee’ applies to the end of one turn and the beginning of the next. However the possible actions are slightly different, and are covered by different sections of the rules. 

Hopefully this will be clearer in  V4 of the rules. 
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 6:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses you missed my point in the FAQ it states "This confirmation replaces pursuit". So impetuous troops not melee but in corner to corner contact with the enemy never pursue they conform with a couple of exception about mounted, artillery and terrain.

IYes I hope it is clearer in V4.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 8:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
Ramses you missed my point in the FAQ it states "This confirmation replaces pursuit". So impetuous troops not melee but in corner to corner contact with the enemy never pursue they conform with a couple of exception about mounted, artillery and terrain.

IYes I hope it is clearer in V4.


The "in contact with flank..." bit is a special case that refers only to an enemy in frontal contact with the flank of the by-now-eponymous recently-victorious Impetuous unit.

You're contacted on 2 sides, you shoudl lose but you nail it on the dice, win and destroy your frontal opponent ... and then you turn to face the second opponent immediately after combat

Conforming when you end up in corner to corner contact after winning a melee happens in the movement phase of the next player turn.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 9:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
My apologies, in that case you have missed the point. The second bullet in the FAQ that you highlighted is indeed the key here, but you have misread it. 

The definition of being “in melee†is on p50, and requires contact with a front edge, not merely corner to corner. 

In this case the impetuous MI have destroyed the enemy to their front, there is no other enemy “in melee†with the flank or rear of the MI, so the section on pursuit kicks in at the end of the turn. 

In the following turn, (now looking at things from the other player’s perspective) there may be units that were supporting the routed unit, which remain in contact but not in melee with enemy units. P55 conforming after a melee only applies to these units. 

And I do understand what you are saying; (the melee has ended, the MI have chosen not to pursue, they are still ‘in contact’ ergo they can conform) but this is not the author’s intention  - hence the FAQ. 
Hopefully this will be clarified eg. preceding the text on p55 by the words “at the start of the movement phase, units may be in contact . . . “
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 11:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK I get it now.
Though it does seem strange that the impetuous foot pursues ending up in side to side contact with the enemy. Then in it is next turn you can teleport it back to the front of the unit it is adjacent to for no pip cost.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 3:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Yup, you have grasped the concept. While the melee occurs during one player’s turn, the term ‘after the melee’ applies to the end of one turn and the beginning of the next. However the possible actions are slightly different, and are covered by different sections of the rules. 

Hopefully this will be clearer in  V4 of the rules. 

We're working on...
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 08, 2020 5:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
OK I get it now.
Though it does seem strange that the impetuous foot pursues ending up in side to side contact with the enemy. Then in it is next turn you can teleport it back to the front of the unit it is adjacent to for no pip cost.


You'd turn into it's flank, not teleport to its front. Wink

Honestly though, some of the rules in this part of the game don't necessarily work in an especially "literal" or "what would happen here in real life" kinda way - especially if you pick them apart and look at individual moves or outcomes in isolation.

Much better to mentally bundle them all together, and view them as a set of mechanics that in the round ends up giving a fair overall balance to the "smashing holes in the enemy line or turning their flank needs to be good.." thing, but stops short of "if the rules get this balance wrong and make either incentivising frontal combat or incentivising turning the enemy flanks too good it will end up screwing up the overall game balance between these two approaches" thing.

Making some troops, in some circumstances, and only sometimes, have to wait a turn before they can take advantage of any breakthrough they achieve is one of the tools Herve has used to manage that balance - its the overall outcome when two battlelines clash that counts, not what one individual unit is allowed to do at any point in the game that counts.
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