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Ambush marker on the edge of terrain
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Snowhitsky
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
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Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 9:32 pm    Sujet du message: Ambush marker on the edge of terrain Répondre en citant
Interesting situation in one of my games at Cork.

My opponent placed an ambush marker on the side edge of a plantation and a bit inside. I moved a LI up and discovered a column of knights. In his turn my opponent tried to shift his column out of the plantation into open ground and charge straight forward into another unit of mine.

I argued that a unit in ambush has to be entirely inside the terrain and therefore a shift by itself would not allow it to clear the terrain so charging forwards wouldleave the knight fighting in terrain. However, as the ambush marker was on the border of the (straight-edged) plantation, technically it allows him to leave the terrain.

Which is it?
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AlanCutner
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Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 9:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
An edge can only be 'in' or 'out' of the terrain, even if on an edge. The rules state an ambush must be entirely 'in'. So even with a slide the unit has an edge 'in' the terrain.
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 9:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Is the LI unit in front of the Ambush marker (or to the side) and is it outside or inside the terrain/plantation?

However, whichever, the LI must be within 1 UD of the ambush marker in the plantation to trigger the ambush.
Therefore the knights are within the Zone if Control of the LI - if they are both within the plantation (?)
In fact - I think that the LI exerts a ZoC into the plantation as it can contact the knights inside the plantation (but need to check this).

If the knights are in the Light Infantry's ZoC, they cannot slide and/or charge out of the constraint imposed by the ZoC (within the plantation).

Also - your description below is not clear.
Was the ambush marker on the edge of the plantation or just slightly inside the plantation?
If it was slightly inside - then a slide will not clear the terrain and the knights must move and fight as if in the plantation.
If it was on the edge of the plantation then a side slip could take place - as long as the knight unit then moves 1 UD to charge the enemy unit - as long as it isn't within a ZoC.
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Snowhitsky
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 10:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mark,

The knight at the head of the column was deployed with its rear edge touching the rear of the ambush marker so it was out of the LI’s ZOC by 1cm.

The ambush marker was parallel to and touching the edge of the plantation so that the side edge of the knight was parallel to and touching the edge of the plantation.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 11:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If the ambush marker is not in the terrain the it is trying to ambush in the open
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 10:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ignoring the Ambush marker a second, the question is whether a unit that is entirely inside terrain (whose flank is aligned with and touching the edge of the terrain), can slide 1UD and then be entirely outside the terrain.

We can also envisage the similar situation where two opposing lines of units are fighting across the border of terrain (some entirely inside and some entirely outside); are those units in the open that fight with their flanks touching the terrain considered to be “fighting in the terrain†or not? RAW, I believe these are fighting in the open.

That being the case, if it is possible to place a unit / marker in the open whose entire flank touches the straight edge of some terrain, it should be possible to place a unit / ambush marker entirely inside the terrain, butting up to that marker outside the terrain. This mimics the situation described in the question and demonstrates the potential for a unit to slide 1UD from an ambush marker into the open.

That said, I suggest that when placing an ambush marker in such a position, the player should declare that it is inside, but touching the edge of, the terrain. And obviously, a unit moving like this is starting inside terrain, so its movement will be restricted accordingly. 
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 11:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't buy this notion that you can be in but out at the same point. Especially along a line.
If this was an electric fence one will be electrified in one of the two positions not free from danger in both.
There is also a belief that all edges are straight.
If terrain was made as rules without straight edges then this debate would / should be defunct.
But then again people will still want the best of both worlds and expect others to give it.
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Snowhitsky
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 12:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses. See http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7387 for PLefebvre's comment about fighting on the edge of terrain.

In this case it isn't just the issue of the combat factors but also movement penalties
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 2:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I will check with the DT on the question of fighting in the open where one or both units are touching terrain.

However it is clear that a unit that starts in terrain has its movement penalised (unless it is LI). Where the ambush marker is placed in terrain, and it must be entirely inside the terrain, units in the ambush must therefore start their movement in that terrain and are subject to these penalties; sliding out of the terrain forms part of that movement. 


So the question is still whether (or not) the slide from a position on the edge of terrain moves the unit outside that terrain, but touching the edge.
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 4:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I suspect that my views do not count for much, but the rulebook says nothing about placing ambush markers at least one millimetre inside of terrain.

If you are able to place an ambush marker at the very edge of terrain, then simple geometry suggests that a slide will take you outside of said terrain.

Jesse
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AlanCutner
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 5:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
If you are able to place an ambush marker at the very edge of terrain, then simple geometry suggests that a slide will take you outside of said terrain.


Not necessarily. The opposite base edge takes the place of the base edge on the terrain/open border. All edges were originally in the terrain (as ambush markers must be entirely in terrain). So as the opposite edge has now taken the place of an edge in terrain, it is also in terrain.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 29, 2019 8:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I disagree Alan.
In effect, an edge divides something that is from something that is not. The edge itself does not have a dimension, so cannot 'occupy' space. Where the edge of the unit coincides with that of the terrain, they separate the base / terrain from 'emptiness' or open terrain. So I contend that sliding the unit under this situation would place the unit outside but touching the edge of the terrain, since it places the unit on the 'other side' of the edge.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 30, 2019 9:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
We've already had this argument with shooting and melee.

[edit] Although to be honest we didn't resolve it fully - http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6819&start=15

My view is there are no "edge cases" you're either in or out of the terrain and suffer penalties/benefits accordingly. You can, of course, be both in and out by straddling the border, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Creating "edge cases" allows too many anomalies and fiddles for clever players to exploit.

In this case the ambush was entirely inside the plantation. It's unreasonable to claim there's a less than leaf thin margin it can cross simply by stepping sideways, but even if you were to claim so then the unit would remain in the plantation by that very thin margin. Anything else is sophistry designed to subvert the rules.

Also in this case being in the plantation during the charge wouldn't prevent the unit conforming out of the plantation at contact if the target was entirely outside itself.

Finally, learn from this - don't set your ambushes in ways that will restrict their movement options, especially in hampering terrain. For instance had this ambush been at a slight angle to the edge the Knights could have emerged fully.

Dave
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 30, 2019 7:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Dave,

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say, but presume that you are agreeing with me Smile

Jesse
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 30, 2019 10:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
Creating "edge cases" allows too many anomalies and fiddles for clever players to exploit.

In this case the ambush was entirely inside the plantation. It's unreasonable to claim there's a less than leaf thin margin it can cross simply by stepping sideways, but even if you were to claim so then the unit would remain in the plantation by that very thin margin. Anything else is sophistry designed to subvert the rules.
We disagree here Dave. Longtooth is correct about the use of “simple geometryâ€. 

Two units can be placed side by side. They are touching; there is no ‘leaf thin’ gap between them, nor is one unit standing on the toes of the other. Were one unit to slide 1UD sideways, it would exactly cover the other base. 

In the same manner, a unit may be placed against the edge of some terrain, but be entirely outside the terrain; sliding sideways would result in the unit being entirely inside the terrain - and visa versa. 
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