Art De La Guerre

cyranoinlondon · Javelinier Inscrit le: 13 Oct 2016 Messages: 10

The Juan Juan appear as allies in Chinese Northern Dynasties (list 120). It says to use the Hsiung Nu (list 116) if the army is pre-500AD.

But the Hsiung Nu list has 2 parts - a 'generic' part and a Southern Hsiung Nu.

So can you choose which part of the list you use, generic or Southern, or are you constrained by history to use one particular part of the list?

Thanks
C

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1544

The Juan-Juan are not Southern Hsiung-Nu ergo you cannot use the southern Hsiung-nu options.

cyranoinlondon · Javelinier Inscrit le: 13 Oct 2016 Messages: 10

Dan,

With all due respect that doesn't really address the question. The Juan-Juan are not Hsiung-Nu at all. They are a successor grouping.

So you could use the same reasoning as you have to say ' The Juan -Juan are not Hsiung Nu ergo you can't use any Hsiung Nu options'. That clearly is nonsense - 'reductio ad absurdum', because we are told to use the Hsiung Nu list. But given that the list is in effect 2 lists - the northern branch who kept to steppe style cavalry and the southern part that adopted Chinese cataphracts- the question is do we know which part best represents the Juan-Juan and if not, are we free to choose which we think is best?

Now I am not an expert on the history of the Chinese steppes. What little I have gleaned can be summarised as:-

1. The Hsiung Nu were a group of tribes/clans.
2. The northern branch of the Hsiung Nu fled west under attack from the Hsien Pi. (And became the Huns).
3. The southerners formed some short lived kingdoms in China proper.
4. A number of tribes/clans recombined around 300AD and formed the Juan-Juan. But whether these were northern clans, or southern clans or a mix of the two I have been unable to ascertain.

It seems to me that unless we know that the clans involved in the formation of the Juan-Juan were all northern then using southern options would be reasonable but not compulsory. By the same token if the clans are all from one area, northern or southern, then that determines which options have to be used.

I appreciate that my initial question didn't spell all this out in grisly detail, but this is what underlies it.

Regards
C

Stephen · Post� le: Ven Oct 14, 2016 8:39 pm Sujet du message:

As the army lists are part of a game, it seems to
me that historical arguments are faulty. However, for what is worth, I believe that the Southern Dynasties recruited large numbers of Chiang and ti tribesmen which are only available in the Southern Hsiung- nu list. As far as geographic designations go, I think they are appropriate and usefully descriptive for the Chinese but far less so for the Hsiang-nu

Stephen · Post� le: Ven Oct 14, 2016 9:04 pm Sujet du message:

I posted in haste. The notes to list 116 say that the southern tribes associated with the Juan Juan but the Southern hsiung-nu are prohibited allies. Best guess is that either interpretation is within the spirit of the rules.

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1544

AvogadroTheMole · Post� le: Sam Oct 22, 2016 12:17 am Sujet du message:

Perhaps I should wait to post until I get home and can reference my book, but I thought there was a statement in the book that army list options need to be specified to use? Maybe I am thinking of a different system and apologise if that is the case.

Still, I think precedent in the army lists side with hazelbark's interpretation. The army lists specifically dictate when a special option is called for. For example, the Nikephorian byzantine may take a Beduoin ally, but the list specifically mandates it to be the Hamdanid option/sub-list (and this is only during a specific year or two. I am not sure this "seals the deal." But, making an interpretation/history based argument, I will observe that some highly a-historic and somewhat absurd allies are possible if one is allowed to choose special option freely. Again, I should have waited to reference my book, but I think it was the Sassanids who could possibly be taken as an ally with a special king's campaign that took place on the far side of the empire from where the native list was located. In the Spanish list (again, I think it was them) the Carthaginians could take a special option for an army that had nothing to do with them when they were fighting. Not a particularly potent argument, but suggestive.

Unfortunately, I know nothing about Juan-Juan or Hsiung-Nu at all, so I really cannot say anything about which option is more historically appropriate and whether the book gets it right or not.