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Battle line with elephants
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Viking709
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 30, 2016 1:21 am    Sujet du message: Battle line with elephants Répondre en citant
If a line of infantry which includes an elephant on the right but has a single enemy unit less than one UD from the extreme left can the whole line charge and is it free or do they have to pay 2 cp because the elephant moved short and did end in combat?
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ciofo
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 30, 2016 11:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think you have to pay 2 CPs.
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Davros
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 30, 2016 12:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ciofo a écrit:
I think you have to pay 2 CPs.


If you want the whole group to advance less than 1UD (and therefore keep the elephants in line with the rest of the group), then yes, I think it costs 2CPs.

But if you allow some of the units in the line to charge to their full movement distance, then I think it is free. Elephants are not obliged to continue a charge (as impetuous troops would be) – but if you don't want to spend the CPs, you can't keep the elephants in line.

That is based on the first paragraph of the "Continuing a charge" section on p36.

If these were medium infantry, I can't see anything to stop you advancing some of them to accompany the elephant, and just leaving the second on the left one to support the left-most unit that is now in melee.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 31, 2016 6:32 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Battle line with elephants Répondre en citant
Viking709 a écrit:
If a line of infantry which includes an elephant on the right but has a single enemy unit less than one UD from the extreme left can the whole line charge and is it free or do they have to pay 2 cp because the elephant moved short and did end in combat?


It is free.
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Viking709
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 31, 2016 9:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok
Thanks. Dan
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 9:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The point to note here is that whilst an advance of less than the full move distance would cost an extra CP because the Elephant is unmanoeuverable, a "Charge" is not an "Advance."

Also, the full move distance for a group is that of the slowest element. So an Elephant grouped with HSp would not cost an extra CP because it only moved 2UD.

Dave
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 10:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with Hazelbark; as described the "charge" is usually free for a unit or group if the charging unit is within 1UD of its target.

However, where the group contains unmanoeuverable units AND these units do not move their full distance, the cost is 2CP unless the unmanoeuverable units actually contact the enemy on their front edge or in support. (see p32 and the new FAQ p3 'impetuous units group).

Groups have to begin, move and end their movement together EXCEPT in a charge (p36), so in this case the charge would be free provided the unit on the extreme right hit an enemy within 1UD while any unmanoeuverable units elsewhere continued their full move distance.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 12:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
so in this case the charge would be free provided the unit on the extreme right hit an enemy within 1UD while any unmanoeuverable units elsewhere continued their full move distance.


Why?

Advance and Charge are two separate things and have different rules.

For instance there is no such thing as a "free" advance.

The compulsion to continue a charge only applies to "impetuous units making an uncontrolled charge." [p36] There is no extra cost attached to the option not to continue a charge beyond first contact.

Dave Allen
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with you that a "Charge" is different from an "Advance", but the terms apply to the entire group. So every unit in the group is deemed to be "charging" even if it does not actually make contact with the enemy.

When charging as part of a group there is no compulsion for the Elephants to continue their move. The same is also true for other such non-impetuous yet unmanoeuverable units. Indeed there may be very good tactical reasons for these units to stop short and retain group cohesion.

However if unmanoeuverable units halt their advance before completing their full movement, the cost for the entire group becomes 2CP per p32.

P36 puts this the other way round
Citation:
When one or more units of a charging group contacts the enemy, the other units of the group who have not contacted the enemy can continue their charge up to their maximum movement
So, where the CPs are not available, the units can still "Charge" as a group provided the unmanoeuverable units move their full distance.

Dernière édition par Ramses II le Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:37 pm; édité 1 fois
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footslogger
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
p22 on spontaneous charges makes it clear that either a unit or a group that contains a unit within 1 ud the charge is free, whether there is an unmaneuverable unit or not in the group is irrelevant
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That is indeed the crux of the question Smile

The definition of a "charge" on p36. is
Citation:
A Charge consists of an advance directly forward towards the enemy.


Since a "Charge" is defined as an "Advance" (which can be continued by other units in the group), it seems that the penalties for umnmanoeuverable units on p32 still apply, even if the charge is spontaneous.

That said, you don't have to include the unmanoeuverable units in the group since they will actually 'strike air'. Equally moving the unmanoeuverable units separately will cost 1CP or 2CP depending on how far they go . . . Wink

Furthermore, the point you raise continues on P23 to mention Impetuous units which cannot contact the enemy, "making the charge uncontrolled". Here, I 'think' that applies to the whole group, but would need that confirmed.
However, if my surmise is correct, that would also penalise the unit actually fighting the enemy, but that is an entirely different question Very Happy
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footslogger
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 2:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There isn't really a question. The rules are clear on p22. The unit or a group that contains the unit can charge without being given any orders. In this case the commander does not need to use any CP.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 2:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You say potato, I say tomato Laughing

I will check elsewhere and see what the intention was here.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 3:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

Since a "Charge" is defined as an "Advance"


No. You are maybe referring to page 36 where "a charge consists of an advance". But you still have it wrong.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 7:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok I have checked with others and found that they all agree with you.

So a group that makes a controlled charge (which includes spontaneous charges) can stop once the charging unit makes contact. This includes all unmanoeuverable units (including impetuous), though they may choose to continue the charge up to their full distance.

Apologies for any confusion caused Embarassed
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