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Heavies heeling through enemy LI during a charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 17, 2025 2:22 am    Sujet du message: Heavies heeling through enemy LI during a charge Répondre en citant
At the beginning of the charge, the charger wheels to charge. Can this wheel go through enemy LI who must flee?

For example, imagine a HC 0.1 MM from and line up opposite an enemy LI in the open. Can the HC wheel 90 degrees through the position occupied by the LI as it declares the direction of charge?

Start
.
HC
LI (tiny separation from enemy HC)

End
.
.
.LIH
…..C

HC declares a charge that begins with a 90 wheel to its left (our right) directly over the position currently occupied by the enemy LI.

Is this allowed?
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Neep
Signifer


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 352
MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 17, 2025 5:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[Garbled nonsense.]

[Should have read it first. The procedure does not indicate you orientate before indicating the direction of the charge.]


Dernière édition par Neep le Mar Aoû 19, 2025 2:39 pm; édité 2 fois
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Zoltan
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 17, 2025 7:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The charger declares its charge and indicates with a marker an intended wheel. At this point no units of either side have moved.

It becomes apparent that enemy light foot would be contacted by the intended charge. Assuming the light foot are in the open, they must now make an evade move. The charger has not yet moved.

In other words, your question does not arise due to the sequence of events:

1. Declare charge with wheel
2. LI evade
3. Charger now makes charge move
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AlanCutner
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Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 17, 2025 7:55 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This question has been discussed fairly recently
https://artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10856
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 18, 2025 5:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
At the beginning of the charge, the charger wheels to charge. Can this wheel go through enemy LI who must flee?




NO.
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Neep
Signifer


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 18, 2025 9:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As Zoltan pointed out, the Charge procedure on page 43 requires the LI to evade before the slide, wheel, and/or turns take place, so they are already gone.
Curt, all-cap "answers" don't foster thoughtful discussion.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 18, 2025 11:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
The charger declares its charge and indicates with a marker an intended wheel. At this point no units of either side have moved.

It becomes apparent that enemy light foot would be contacted by the intended charge. Assuming the light foot are in the open, they must now make an evade move. The charger has not yet moved.

In other words, your question does not arise due to the sequence of events:

1. Declare charge with wheel
2. LI evade
3. Charger now makes charge move


Except that is not strictly the rules.

charge p 43
section 1
2nd bullet. Reachable without passing through enemy units. You may choose a target beyond the LI.
> This prevents a LI from say interposing itself between a KN and MI rear at 3 UD and forcing the KN to roll adjusted distance. The KN can say i will charge straight at MI no adjusted roll for KN

Section 2
does not override 1.


This has long been established in v3 and v4.


So plain english "no" is accurate. In lay speak, you cannot declare a wheel through the position of an enemy unit.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 12:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK so the physical presence of the enemy Light Foot constrains the amount of wheel the chargers may declare, regardless of the fact that the Light Foot does not exert a ZoC and must evade.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 12:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting. Thanks.

I sort of thought Dan’s position is what the rule was going into the tournament this weekend. However, everyone (among those who had an opinion) thought I was wrong, so we adopted the position that heavies can declare a wheel through LI’s position if the LI must evade. It wasn’t a surprise overturning anyone’s plan (it sort of came up accidentally) so I don’t think ruling one way or the other affected any games as everyone knew what to expect. But, I do think it would be good to make sure this is widely known as the tactic of cramming LI in front of a target to stop it from wheeling (much) as it initiates a charge is occasionally very useful.

(I have to admit my interpretation when this first came up was highly motivated by the need to cover the flank of impetuous knights that had suddenly gone long on a pursuit and I was scrambling for how to save some Normans who now found themselves in a sea of Mongols.)
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Neep
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 2:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'm not following this at all. Is the issue that the HC do not have a target beyond the LI, and are trying to make a free move through the original position of the LI??
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 3:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
………..…..Desired Target Exposing Flank
LI
HC

The HC want to wheel through where the LI are to end up hitting the Desired Target knights in the flank. (A wheel or turn followed by a wheel won’t do it, they have to wheel through the LI’s location - the LI start 0.5 mm or so in front of the HC.)
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Andy Fyfe
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 14 Fév 2024
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 7:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Zoltan a écrit:
The charger declares its charge and indicates with a marker an intended wheel. At this point no units of either side have moved.

It becomes apparent that enemy light foot would be contacted by the intended charge. Assuming the light foot are in the open, they must now make an evade move. The charger has not yet moved.

In other words, your question does not arise due to the sequence of events:

1. Declare charge with wheel
2. LI evade
3. Charger now makes charge move


Except that is not strictly the rules.

charge p 43
section 1
2nd bullet. Reachable without passing through enemy units. You may choose a target beyond the LI.
> This prevents a LI from say interposing itself between a KN and MI rear at 3 UD and forcing the KN to roll adjusted distance. The KN can say i will charge straight at MI no adjusted roll for KN

Section 2
does not override 1.


This has long been established in v3 and v4.


So plain english "no" is accurate. In lay speak, you cannot declare a wheel through the position of an enemy unit.


This seams very similar to the discussion about LI blocking an evade move.

The LI were deemed to have to evade even though the first part of the evade process said that they blocked the initial reorientation.

Later on in the evade process it said all LI contacted must evade which is clear.

This situation sounds the same; LI being able to effectively block a charge seems odd.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1697
MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 19, 2025 6:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Andy Fyfe a écrit:


This seams very similar to the discussion about LI blocking an evade move.

The LI were deemed to have to evade even though the first part of the evade process said that they blocked the initial reorientation.

Later on in the evade process it said all LI contacted must evade which is clear.

This situation sounds the same; LI being able to effectively block a charge seems odd.



So "seems similar" is because you are doing what all of us do which is to translate rules into simple jargon (not excusing myself on this either).

LI do not block units (sounds similar). The methods are specific and actually similar to me in the opposite way you describe.
Neither allow the heavy unit to move through the LI at any point.
Both require the LI to get out of the way.
Both kill the LI if it is contacted after an evade.

The LI being forced to evade, does not alter the evading units path. It can be caught and killed same as a charge.
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