Art De La Guerre

KevinD

Is the Most Threatening Enemy reevaluated during a charge as some enemy evade or does the original MTE remain the MTE throughout the charge?

Suppose for example there is a charging unit (A) an enemy in front (X, the MTE) and another enemy off to the side (Y) at an angle such that it would ZOC A but it’s not the MTE as X is in front of A but Y is not. A charges X (it’s MTE) which evades. Is Y now the MTE and thus it halts A’s charge at the start point (or a micron forward) as A can’t charge across Y’s ZOC (as p 43 #6 last bullet seems to say), or does A carry on charging after X as it was the original MTE?

Y……AAA
.Y……
……XXX

Neep · Signifer Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 323

The 7th bullet in section 6 on page 43 seems to indicate it's immediately re-evaluated.

Mike Bennett · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 8:56 am Sujet du message:

Ramses II · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 11:59 am Sujet du message:

I suggest there are three possible outcomes in this kind of scenario:

The charger and target are more than 1UD apart, so XX is not the MTE.
Here the chargers AA may choose a direction that will contact both XX and YY. (P43, step2)
AA may start inside the ZoC of XX, and must move with respect to that ZoC (p36).
In this case, if XX evades, AA can only advance until it meets an enemy ZoC, where it must comply with that ZoC, or stop. As originally described, it cannot comply so must stop.
Since YY is placed to protect XX in some manner, AA may decide to do nothing (mutually pinning each other may provide some numerical advantage elsewhere . . . per last comment p36)

KevinD · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 5:54 pm Sujet du message:

Thanks Ramses.

In this case XXX was TME and AAA was impetuous so had to charge.

So, it looks like AAA declares a charge on XXX who evades but then YYY is the new TME so AAA just sits. The only on table movement is that XXX evades….

(Although the rules currently don’t permit it, it would be nice if a charger could wheel to face and then continue their charge against a new TME.)

Mike,

I do think YYY’s ZOC counts as a new ZOC as only TME’s ZOC is considered to be a ZOC originally. “Meet” is a bit awkward as can imply motion… hence why perhaps AAA has to move a micron. But note it does not always do so (“I met Bob when he came over to our office yesterday”.) but perhaps all this is parsing the meaning of “meet” a little too much - who knows what the connotation in the original French was….

Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 7:30 pm Sujet du message:

This exact situation arose in a tournament 2 weeks ago and I discussed it with Dan H. Our conclusion was as follows:

1. A unit starts within two enemy ZoCs: one to its front, the other to its side.

2. The unit determines the MTE at this point in time: the ZoCer to its front.

3. The unit declares a charge.

4. The MTE elects to evade and completes its move.

5. The charger completes its move (ignoring the side ZoCer).

6. The charger only stops if it meets the ZoC of a third (new) enemy.

7. “Meets” does indeed imply that forward motion is underway

KevinD · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 8:01 pm Sujet du message:

Thanks, Zoltan.

Now that 2 members of the DT seem to disagree, I’d really like some sort of quasi official ruling on this. It’s not exactly an uncommon situation.

Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 8:10 pm Sujet du message:

The MTE rules are in a section about options for moving when in a ZoC.

One option for leaving a ZoC is to charge the MTE.

The MTE concept appears to have been introduced as a tie-breaker where multiple opponents exert a ZoC on a unit.

i.e. if there are many threatening enemies (aka ZoCers), you may charge the MOST threatening (ignoring the others).

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1672

KevinD · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 8:45 pm Sujet du message:

Yes, but once he evades he is no longer the MTE but it’s now to late to change the direction of your charge and go after the new MTE.

P 36 says you can charge the MTE (2nd bullet) but also the bottom paragraph says when you are in or enter the MTE the charge must target it. P 43 says a charge stops when it meets such a ZOC. The question is do you dynamically recalculate the MTE during the charge as the first enemy evades (and is thus no longer the MTE)?

Dan and Ramses seem to disagree on this (at least regarding a second (would be) ZOC that will become the MTE when the target evades if the charger began his charge in that 2nd unit’s ZOC).

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1672

Let me ask:

option A
You charge
You start in the ZOC of one unit and adhering to ZOC rules will now enter a ZOC of a new unit and try to it cross illegally a ZOC as the original charger travels down its path

or

option B
You charge
You are in two ZOCs.
Your Charge complies with the ZOC of the MTE.
What effect does the second ZOC that was not the MTE have?

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1672

KevinD · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 9:18 pm Sujet du message:

Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Ao� 12, 2024 10:02 pm Sujet du message:

The decision on which ZoCer to charge is made at a single point in time (charge phase).

P.35 clearly states “When a unit is in…one or more enemy ZoCs, the only movements allowed … are determined by the MTE.”

The permitted movements include charging the MTE (p.36 errata).

Neep · Signifer Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 323

You stop when the Zoc blocks your movement. If you wind up in a ZoC of an enemy you cannot contact, you still advance as far as you can reducing misalignment.

NEW ISSUE
There is a sneaky option for the impetuous uncontrolled charge. You must take the shortest path toward your priority target. But a slide doesn't cost you, so you might be able to skirt the potentially intruding ZoC.