Art De La Guerre

Neep · Légionaire Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 130

A simple and fundamental question: Does the second bullet on page 70 apply only to cover - and therefore only to Plantation? Or does it apply to difficult terrain as well?

Consider bowmen with their back edge in Woods, or on a Steep Hill, or on a Wooded Steep Hill.

SteveR · Prétorien Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 284

I really think people are making this harder than it needs to be. But to be fair there is a slightly confusing aspect.

The second bullet on page 70 is inclusive of all forms of cover. So it makes a shooting unit take a -1 if the shooting unit is in cover and defines cover. This is the general case regarding cover and applies to Plantation, and Village and Woods.

There is a second cause for a unit to take a -1. That cause is if the shooter is in difficult terrain. If the shooter is in difficult terrain then the shooter take a -1 regardless of the position of the front edge. See page 72 under woods and village, page 71 under steep hills and so on.

The unfortunate thing is that the same language is used for plantations on page 71. "shoots from a plantation does so with a penalty of -1" However page 70 makes it clear what is necessary to receive the shooting malus for cover - front edge in the terrain providing cover.

So in practice the second bullet on page 70 only affects Plantations. As woods, steep hills, marsh village, sand dunes and the like have a more encompassing reason to take a -1

daveallen · Post� le: Mar Nov 14, 2023 11:28 am Sujet du message:

Steve, I'm not fully convinced. Let's look at the rules about cover as a whole:

Page 57 Line of sight:

Neep · Légionaire Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 130

I'm not making sense. The issue remains why is bullet 2 talking about shooting edge unless there is something special about it??

daveallen · Post� le: Mar Nov 14, 2023 6:46 pm Sujet du message:

Good point. That's why we need a ruling rather than trying to tease out what the intent of the writer was as in the days of WRG.

Dave
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lionelrus · Post� le: Mar Nov 14, 2023 7:17 pm Sujet du message:

1° YES
2° YES
3° Why not
4) Yes
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SteveR · Prétorien Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 284

Hi Lionel,

I am not sure I agree with you on question 2.

The unit is not shooting from difficult terrain. So it does not take a -1 for that

The unit does not have it's shooting edge in cover so it is not penalized for that reason. Page 70 and page 58.

Other than that I appreciate your weighing in.

Mark G Fry · Post� le: Mer Nov 15, 2023 12:55 pm Sujet du message:

Surely this all raises a bigger issue about 'Cover' - that was also discussed in some depth in a previous (recent) thread.

Logically a unit is either in-cover or it isn't. This front edge in or out bit is unnecessarily confusing.

In a game that happened at the weekend (at Warfare) we had an instance where, because of the irregular shapes of two woods that were deployed end to end, a unit of LI was left 'straddling' the gap between the two woods. So its front edge was in at one end, out in the middle and in again at the other end. When it was shot at was it in or out? The enemy Bowmen shooting at it were historically perfectly capable of claiming that they were just targeting the bit of the front edge that was out of the terrain. In the end my opponent & I agreed that it was in cover as the majority of its base (2/3rds) was in the wood - but it was all a bit daft TBF as part of the unit was clearly out of cover.

Personally, I'd argue that "if any part of the front base edge of a unit is outside a terrain piece, then the whole unit is out - for shooting and melee purposes" - that would avoid any rulings being required and would make it all so much clean and clearer.
Of course it would also solve the issue had the Bowmen in the example above charged the LI - as the LI were deemed to have been in the open (as part of their base was out of the terrain) so they'd have had to evade the charge anyway. But had the target LI been MF and the MF had stood to take the charge you'd have ended up with both Bowmen and the MF fighting in the open - as part of each units front edge was out of the terrain. It also solves all these issues of units not conforming as part of their target is in terrain that disadvantages them.

But that is just a suggestion - not an answer to the challenges above. However, this is all getting very 'Kafkaesque' Laughing

NB: I have always been told and subsequently played it that LI can shoot unpenalized from all terrain - which does make a lot of sense.

Hey ho Very Happy

daveallen · Post� le: Ven Nov 17, 2023 9:53 pm Sujet du message:

Mark,

I appreciate the frustration with rules that seem illogical. In my first ever ancients game (WRG 4th edition iirc) I had a unit of 60 Persian archers (seemed like a good idea at the time) attacked on the left flank. It felt ridiculous that this would immediately cause disorder nearl 200 yards away on the right flank, but them was the rules.

As long as the shooters could draw two lines from the corners of the shooting edge to a single point on the LI without either passing through the woods that's fine. It kind of makes sense that they'd shoot at the target they could see. It might be a bit harsh that the supporting fire still counts as full effect even if through cover, but them's the rules.

As for the other effects of terrain, I remember some of the WRG nightmare terrain rules and these are much better. What we really want from these rules is consistency and clarity that allows us to get on with the serious business of being lucky without having to think too hard.

Dave
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Mark G Fry · Post� le: Sam Nov 18, 2023 9:08 am Sujet du message:

Andy Fyfe · Frondeur Inscrit le: 14 F�v 2024 Messages: 3

I take it there was never a ruling about this?

I would have thought it would be easier to say:

"If the unit receives a cover bonus when targeted by shooting then it receives a shooting penalty when it shoots unless it is LI"

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1537

the latest FAQ
Shooting from cover (page 58-59) A unit that shoots from behind a fortification does not suffer a shooting penalty.

Is there a question that is unresolved for you? I will resolve it. Happy to serve.

Neep · Légionaire Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 130

Let me rephrase the OP question.

Bowmen have their back half in a Plantation. Plantation is cover. It is not difficult terrain. The rules (page 70) are quite clear that it does not suffer the -1.

Bowmen have their back half on a Steep Hill, or in a Wooded Steep Hill, or Marsh, or Dunes. They will suffer the -1 if they are "in" the terrain. By analogy with melee, they would be "in" and so suffer the penalty. [Added] If they are "in" only if the shooting edge is "in" - as analogous to cover - then they do not suffer the penalty.

Bowmen have their back half in a Village or Woods. These are both cover and difficult. Do they suffer the penalty?

Do we have a quirky and obscure exception for Plantations? do we have a more limited interpretation of "in" for Shooting as opposed to Melee? do we have a Frankenstein resolution?

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1537

Neep · Légionaire Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 130

Because the rule on page 70 refers to the shooting edge of the shooters vis-à-vis cover. If it extends to difficult terrain, then we have an answer - I probably should have put that possibility in the rephrasing.

Good point about plants on hills, though I assume you must have access to the specific type of vegetation in the region?