Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1672
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 Posté le: Ven Jan 10, 2025 6:29 pm Sujet du message: |
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| MarkK a écrit: | Anyway my point was  MC = are LC with a slight uograde, ‘They are quite similar to light cavalry, but fight in a more compact formation’ p.15Â
HC = ‘are noble or elite horsemen well protected, sometimes with caparisoned horse’ p.15
So yes I would have though being a bit crap and cheap was exactly the point and the fact they are popular is neither hither nor thither. They are LC at the same points cost of HC. |
In fact they are not LC with a slight upgrade. Other than being slightly less maneuverable they have many other advantages including:
* they shoot better
* they will likely beat LC
* They can charge and melee MI
* They can flank charge heavy units and inflict cohesion losses
* They can take fortified camps.
* A 3rd cohesion is more important than slight |
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MarkK
Archer
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 64
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| Posté le: Sam Jan 11, 2025 11:00 am Sujet du message: |
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| Hazelbark a écrit: | | MarkK a écrit: | Anyway my point was  MC = are LC with a slight uograde, ‘They are quite similar to light cavalry, but fight in a more compact formation’ p.15Â
HC = ‘are noble or elite horsemen well protected, sometimes with caparisoned horse’ p.15
So yes I would have though being a bit crap and cheap was exactly the point and the fact they are popular is neither hither nor thither. They are LC at the same points cost of HC. |
In fact they are not LC with a slight upgrade. Other than being slightly less maneuverable they have many other advantages including:
* they shoot better
* they will likely beat LC
* They can charge and melee MI
* They can flank charge heavy units and inflict cohesion losses
* They can take fortified camps.
* A 3rd cohesion is more important than slight |
They are LC that fight in a compact formation. I'm assuming the rational is to represent LC nomadic horse archers swirling around and then banding together in a group to attack weak spots. Taking the points Mark G raised I have narrowed down what was irking me. Huns are a favoured army of mine, but it has always been a question of quantity over quality with them. So you may not have the quality over more regular troops, who tend to be better trained and better equipped, but that is balanced out by having the numbers. The way the points system is arranged both sides more or less end up with the same amount of units - about 20 to 21 with Elite MC or you can lean more towards the LC option and get to about 25 with some HC Elite Bw. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1626
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Sam Jan 11, 2025 2:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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https://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/?/en/statistics/event/830 is a link to the results of a UK competition in 2023 that was absoluetly dominated by Huns.
Both the "placed" lists are here - one has 10 MCv Bw, the other has 9...
Paul Dawson / Roll Call 2023
Ordinary Included
1 nobles with general Heavy cavalry bow Elite
1 horse archers Medium cavalry bow Elite
1 horse archers Light cavalry bow Elite
1 horse archers Light cavalry bow ------
==
Brilliant
1 nobles with general Heavy cavalry bow Elite
3 horse archers Medium cavalry bow Elite
2 horse archers Light cavalry bow Elite
1 horse archers Medium cavalry bow ------
2 bowmen Bowmen ----
==
Competent
5 horse archers Medium cavalry bow Elite
1 horse archers Light cavalry bow Elite
2 horse archers Light cavalry bow ------
Hubert Bretagne: Winning list Roll call 2023
Fortified Camp
Strategist
2 Huns nobles + gen Heavy cavalry bow Elite
6 Huns horsemen Medium cavalry bow Elite
4 Huns horsemen Light cavalry bow Elite
==
Ordinary included
1 Huns nobles + gen Heavy cavalry bow Elite
2 Huns horsemen Medium cavalry bow Elite
2 Huns horsemen Light cavalry bow Elite
==
Ordinary Included
1 Huns horsemen + gen Light cavalry bow Elite
2 Huns horsemen Light cavalry bow Elite
_________________
www.madaxeman.com |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 588
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Sam Jan 11, 2025 2:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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| MarkK a écrit: | | Hazelbark a écrit: | | MarkK a écrit: | Anyway my point was  MC = are LC with a slight uograde, ‘They are quite similar to light cavalry, but fight in a more compact formation’ p.15Â
HC = ‘are noble or elite horsemen well protected, sometimes with caparisoned horse’ p.15
So yes I would have though being a bit crap and cheap was exactly the point and the fact they are popular is neither hither nor thither. They are LC at the same points cost of HC. |
In fact they are not LC with a slight upgrade. Other than being slightly less maneuverable they have many other advantages including:
* they shoot better
* they will likely beat LC
* They can charge and melee MI
* They can flank charge heavy units and inflict cohesion losses
* They can take fortified camps.
* A 3rd cohesion is more important than slight |
They are LC that fight in a compact formation. I'm assuming the rational is to represent LC nomadic horse archers swirling around and then banding together in a group to attack weak spots. Taking the points Mark G raised I have narrowed down what was irking me. Huns are a favoured army of mine, but it has always been a question of quantity over quality with them. So you may not have the quality over more regular troops, who tend to be better trained and better equipped, but that is balanced out by having the numbers. The way the points system is arranged both sides more or less end up with the same amount of units - about 20 to 21 with Elite MC or you can lean more towards the LC option and get to about 25 with some HC Elite Bw. |
But they are not just LC that fight in a compact formation.
We see a lot of 'classical' armies with ordinary MC (no bow or impact etc.) and they are melee troops (in the Spanish, German, Gallic, Carthaginian, Roman etc. lists for example).
Giving them a bow improves them significantly (IMHO).
They are, as Tim has indicated, a competition winning troop type. It's all a matter of how you use them on the table.
Even Albanian MC javelins and LC javelin armies have won competitions. Yet at 1st glance it would be hard to see how, but the have and still do.
It's easy to suggest a change, but you'd need to work through the consequences across all the other troop types.
Again, back to my point, ADLG is a very carefully balanced system, 1 small ill-considered change and you knock the whole Jenga pile over
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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MarkK
Archer
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 64
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| Posté le: Dim Jan 12, 2025 10:31 am Sujet du message: |
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'But they are not just LC that fight in a compact formation.'
I don't disagree with you, maybe the troop description on p.15 should be worded differently. Thanks for the input, some interesting comments and much to ponder. Great resources Tim, I shall certainly delve headfirst into that.
Best wishes,
Mark |
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