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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1672
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 Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 2:01 am Sujet du message: |
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| KevinD a écrit: |
Option C:
You start in the ZOC of the MTE and another (nonMTE) unit off at an angle that charging the MTE will not cause you to hit. The MTE evades (removing its ZOC I presume), leaving you in the ZOC of the other unit. What happens? Does the charging unit remain in place as it can’t cross this (now MTE) ZOC? Move forward slightly and halt (as it can’t continue crossing a new MTE’s ZOC)? Continue on after the evader ignoring the second unit’s (now presumably MTE) ZOC as you do not recalculate MTE ZOCs during charges and evades?
If the original target doesn’t evade, there’s no problem as you are charging the MTE. But what if it evades and takes it’s ZOC away? |
Well that is option B.
Your charge goes forward. As pointed out the definition of the second ZOC coming into play only occurs if your charging unit meets a new ZOC that it tries to cross.
Without this a unit could never charge when it had a unit on its flank. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1672
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 2:06 am Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: |
NEW ISSUE
There is a sneaky option for the impetuous uncontrolled charge. You must take the shortest path toward your priority target. But a slide doesn't cost you, so you might be able to skirt the potentially intruding ZoC. |
remember p 45 right side bullets
3 and 7. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 668
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 2:09 am Sujet du message: |
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| Thanks Dan. |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 594
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 2:41 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | | You must take the shortest path toward your priority target. But a slide doesn't cost you, so you might be able to skirt the potentially intruding ZoC. |
A slide and advance is still a longer route than a straight advance, even if the slide is free for movement allowance |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1243
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 3:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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There is no disagreement with Dan, see p36
| Citation: | | If a unit is in the ZoC of several enemy units, only the ZoC of the most threatening enemy unit is considered. The unit ignores the ZoCs of other units when making its move. |
As presented originally, AA was only in the ZoC of XX, so it moves with respect to that ZoC and later when it encounters the ZoC of YY, it must stop unless it can contact YY while complying with the new ZoC.Â
So the positioning of YY is critical, as if it is too close AA can effectively ignore it’s ZoC. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 668
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 3:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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Thanks Ramses.
I was probably not clear but my intent was that AA was in the ZOC of both XX and YY at the start. Your and Dan’s conclusions seem to be the same here, AA ignores YY for its charge as XX was the MTE and YY’s ZOC was preexisting at the start of the charge. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4825
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 4:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | This exact situation arose in a tournament 2 weeks ago and I discussed it with Dan H. Our conclusion was as follows:
1. A unit starts within two enemy ZoCs: one to its front, the other to its side.
2. The unit determines the MTE at this point in time: the ZoCer to its front.
3. The unit declares a charge.
4. The MTE elects to evade and completes its move.
5. The charger completes its move (ignoring the side ZoCer).
6. The charger only stops if it meets the ZoC of a third (new) enemy.
7. “Meets†does indeed imply that forward motion is underway |
I agree.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 323
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 7:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | Neep a écrit: | | You must take the shortest path toward your priority target. But a slide doesn't cost you, so you might be able to skirt the potentially intruding ZoC. |
A slide and advance is still a longer route than a straight advance, even if the slide is free for movement allowance |
Yes, arguably.
There is something to be said for measuring "shortest" is terms of MA - is 90 degree wheel shorter than a 1/4 turn? for impetuous? 
---
This is only a consideration for Kevin's specific situation. If the impetuous element has a priority target but it's not in its ZoC, then the path must be one that reaches the target (and there must be a path to be in charge range). If a slide (or wheel etc) is necessary to avoid a possible interrupting ZoC, it must be taken.
In Kevin's example, the target is the MTE, so the path must be traced directly ignoring other ZoCs. But as soon as the target evades, the other ZoCs come into play. |
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Zoltan
Légat
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 505
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 10:01 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | | ... If the impetuous element has a priority target but it's not in its ZoC, then the path must be one that reaches the target (and there must be a path to be in charge range). If a slide (or wheel etc) is necessary to avoid a possible interrupting ZoC, it must be taken. |
NO!
An uncontrolled charge is like any declared charge (except that it was forced). Slides, wheels, and turns may only be made at the commencement of the charge. Thereafter the charger must advance in a straight line (p.43 section 4 left column).
If, en route, a charger "would" encounter an enemy ZoC which blocks its movement, it stops per p.43 section 6 and 8. There is no "skirting around" this.
Thus, for impetuous units, enemy ZoCs en route need to be considered in deciding whether or not an uncontrolled charge is required. An interposing ZoC (which forces the charge to stop) from an enemy which is not be the target of the uncontrolled charge, would trigger p.45 right column bullet 6 (previously hinted at by DanH): "Units who cannot contact enemy do not make an uncontrolled charge." |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 323
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| Posté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2024 11:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Uh, Zoltan, that is what I said. If you cannot reach it, it is not in charge range, so you do not make an uncontrolled charge. But if you can reach it with a judicious initial adjustment, then you must. The difference with Kevin's scenario is that in his there is no other intervening ZoCs because he is in the ZoC of the MTE, so he (probably) cannot adjust to skirt the ZoCs that pops up when the MTE skedaddles. Depends upon whether one is permitted a zero cost slide displacement or not. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1243
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Aoû 14, 2024 12:33 am Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | | In Kevin's example, the target is the MTE, so the path must be traced directly ignoring other ZoCs. But as soon as the target evades, the other ZoCs come into play. |
NO. See Lionelrus reply above |
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Zoltan
Légat
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 505
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Mer Aoû 14, 2024 1:48 am Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | | Uh, Zoltan, that is what I said. If you cannot reach it, it is not in charge range, so you do not make an uncontrolled charge. But if you can reach it with a judicious initial adjustment, then you must. |
Charge range is different from being able to contact the target.
1. Measured in a straight line from where the impetuous unit starts, to the target unit, is the distance equal to or less than the impetuous unit's normal movement rate (given the terrain): yes or no?
If no, read no further and get on with the rest of the game.
If yes:
2. Do any p.46 exceptions apply?
If no:
3. Can the impetuous unit make a legal charge move to contact the target? There are a range of things (such as reaching a new ZoC that can't be avoided with an initial slide, wheel etc) that may preclude contact and therefore mean no uncontrolled charge occurs. |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 323
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| Posté le: Mer Aoû 14, 2024 3:23 am Sujet du message: |
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The definition of Charge range can be found on page 42, if any of you are that bored.
Dernière édition par Neep le Mer Aoû 14, 2024 3:31 am; édité 1 fois |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 323
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| Posté le: Mer Aoû 14, 2024 3:31 am Sujet du message: |
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| Sorry, I didn't intend to argue about starting in X's and Y's ZoCs as opposed to encountering Y's ZoC as one advances. My point is that you must chose a path to reach a priority target, so it does not seem against the spirit to choose a path to chase a priority target that might evade. |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 323
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| Posté le: Mer Aoû 14, 2024 3:55 am Sujet du message: |
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While I will happily concede to any ruling the DT makes, it looks like we are still discussing the question:
If a unit starts in several ZoC's and charges the MTE which evades, does it ignore the other ZoC's and chase the former MTE?
I have two concerns. First, I don't see how you can, given page 43 section 4 bullet 4, "Charge movement must comply with ZoC rules".
Second, you could be just outside other enemy ZoC's that cannot be avoided so you could not ignore them and would instead stop.
I don't see what is gained with such a difference based on a minor distinction. |
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