Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1316
Localisation: London
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 Posté le: Lun Sep 21, 2026 2:59 am Sujet du message: |
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| Dickstick a écrit: | I give up on you lot.
You cannot see what I see and have only seen in play.
I'll leave you to enjoy you own world.
Goodbye. |
Rather than us double guessing what you see, please could you explain your views again. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1836
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Sep 23, 2026 9:06 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | | Dickstick a écrit: | I give up on you lot.
You cannot see what I see and have only seen in play.
I'll leave you to enjoy you own world.
Goodbye. |
Rather than us double guessing what you see, please could you explain your views again. |
Hi Gavin
I think to be fair we have uncovered a point of ambiguity on this one.
p9 - "Routed" status happens when a unit loses its last cohesion point.
p9 - Routed units are eliminated and removed at the end of the "current phase" (this can therefore see units taken off table during "movement", "shooting" or "following melee").
p61 - Units can become Routed as a consequence of multiple attacks, which (in this specific case) would mean the unit should be removed "in the movement phase".
p61 - Units routed in this way are not however removed in the movement phase (ie this specific situation is a bulleted exception to the general rule stated on p9)
p61 - Units routed in this way are instead (kinda) treated as if lost in melee, although no melee dice are rolled for this melee.
p68 - "Routs and pursuits are conducted at the end of the players sequence" ... which I think we have all always read and played as meaning "Routs and pursuits caused by melee are conducted...", otherwise this flatly contradicts the statement on p9 about Routers being eliminated at the end of the "current phase".
p68 - If "Routs caused by melee" are conducted in the Rout & Pursuit phase, and "units routed by multiple attacks during movement phase" are not resolved immediately but instead are resolved after the melee phase ... then it's not an unreasonable reading of the rules to think that these specific routs are implemented/conducted/happen "as if" they were caused by melee, as they clearly are an explicit exception to the general rule about Routers being removed immediately Rout status is reached.
There is also a general understanding that ADLG works pretty dammed hard to avoid the players ever having to have "memory" of prior events - this is embedded throughout the rules in multiple sections, so having to "remember" what the orientation of the units involved was in the movement phase in order to correctly resolve a rout in the Rout & Pursuit phase is rather jarring - especially as it's hard to think of a reason why this one very niche and specific scenario has been deemed worth making an exception to the general rule of "no player memory needed" that runs through the rest of the rulebook.
Honestly, it's so corner case that I really don't care either way, but there is certainly enough ambiguity here to legitimize other viewpoints - and there is, as I've suggested above, also a decent case to say that applying Occams Razor would see this scenario treated as if the unit was "routed in melee", with the resolution of the rout and pursuit then conducted with the figures in the places where they are in the Rout & Pursuit phase
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www.madaxeman.com |
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vexillia
Centurion
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 495
Localisation: Nantwich, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Sep 23, 2026 3:05 pm Sujet du message: |
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Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive summary.
| madaxeman a écrit: |
Honestly, it's so corner case that I really don't care either way, but there is certainly enough ambiguity here to legitimize other viewpoints |
Secondly, this "corner case" is a currently valid stratagem for maximising damage to your opponent; if the routing unit is so positioned that it knocks a cohesion point off another friendly unit.
It's probably used infrequently (hence your designation) and used only by very experienced players or those that have "suffered" when it's been used against them. However, you have to have the skill, the opportunity and the pips which is presumably why it's used infrequently.
But, being infrequent doesn't automatically make it a "corner case" not least because its effect can be significant. There are many such "corner (infrequent) cases" in the rules already.
Finally, your summary highlights exactly the sort of thing that should be tackled in V5. Will you be raising it with the DT?
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Martin Stephenson
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Dickstick
Tribun
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 771
Localisation: West Bromwich
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| Posté le: Mer Sep 23, 2026 7:08 pm Sujet du message: |
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Must brush up on shooting people to rout into their friends before the melees are is enacted .
At lease we are stopped from moving through routers moving in the unfinished moving phase. Or are we? there must be confusion here.
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Neep
Centurion
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 418
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| Posté le: Mer Sep 23, 2026 9:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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I find it hard to reconcile the preamble and first bullet on page 68 with page 9. One of them is incorrect.
Routs outside of melee won't cause a Pursuit, but the possibility of friendly fouling might exist. If shooting Routs an Elephant, I would expect a Rampage. |
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