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MarkK
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 41
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 Posté le: Jeu Fév 13, 2025 11:55 am Sujet du message: Disguised Camels list 130 |
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| I'm assuming these are just camels as can't find anything in the index for disguised troops? |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 637
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Ven Fév 14, 2025 5:12 am Sujet du message: |
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| I think so too. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1654
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| Posté le: Ven Fév 14, 2025 1:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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| They are just the troop type listed. |
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DarkBlack
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 20 Mar 2020
Messages: 40
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| Posté le: Ven Fév 14, 2025 4:07 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Which sounds better than having to make rules just for them and then listing them as a special case more times in eash rules section than they occur in all the army lists combined |
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MarkK
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 41
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| Posté le: Sam Fév 15, 2025 12:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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| DarkBlack a écrit: | | Which sounds better than having to make rules just for them and then listing them as a special case more times in eash rules section than they occur in all the army lists combined |
Just call them Medium Camels then. |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 547
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Sam Fév 15, 2025 1:11 pm Sujet du message: |
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Well ... they were actually Camels disguised as Elephants (apparently).
So Dummy Elephants would probably be a more correct term, but that would be even more confusing I suspect 
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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MarkK
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 41
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| Posté le: Dim Fév 16, 2025 9:23 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | Well ... they were actually Camels disguised as Elephants (apparently).
So Dummy Elephants would probably be a more correct term, but that would be even more confusing I suspect |
A little. The only elephant would be the room, everyone would know that they aren't elephants, if you've bothered to look at the list that is. |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 547
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Dim Fév 16, 2025 4:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| MarkK a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: | Well ... they were actually Camels disguised as Elephants (apparently).
So Dummy Elephants would probably be a more correct term, but that would be even more confusing I suspect |
A little. The only elephant would be the room, everyone would know that they aren't elephants, if you've bothered to look at the list that is. |
True - there are other instances of 'disguised' units.
I think that the Athenians and Syracusans used galley oarsmen 'disguised as hoplites' (I think the Knights Hospitallers might have done something similar at the siege of Rhodes as well - but not as hoplites, obviously). Later in the C17th the Poles mounted peasants and waggoneers on draught horses and gave them the banners of Hussar units and had them ride up and down at the rear of the deployed army, far enough out of sight as to allow the enemy not to be able to distinguish that they were not actually a threat. And I am sure there are plenty of other cases that could be sighted.
The question is, is it really worth having a special mechanism to cover the (very) rare instances that such a ruse was deployed? Probably not would be my view.
In the case of the Athenians & Syracusans (& Poles) the ruse caused the enemy a degree of confusion but that was about it.
Dummy Elephants/Camels are slightly different, in that we have a written account (I cannot remember by whom) and they did cause disorder and confusion in the enemy cavalry, but no more than if they'd been camels anyway.
I've played one set of rules that allowed a player to field their 'dummy' hoplites as actual hoplite figures, until the enemy reached a certain distance from them, and then the units was 'unmasked' and replaced by one containing rather unhappy poorly trained oarsmen - fighting as the equivalent of Levy (mediocre). But as you say, that wouldnt really work with 'dummy camels'.
Maybe they should move a bit slower, being encumbered with a large wood and wicket frame covered in cloth and with large imitation ears and trunk 
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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MarkK
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 41
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 17, 2025 10:22 am Sujet du message: |
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The question is, is it really worth having a special mechanism to cover the (very) rare instances that such a ruse was deployed?
Possibly, not least because a lot of the army list are very 'samey' and lack flavour. As there isn't the mechanic to disguise troops, I'm not sure I see the point of having them in the army list - other than adding a bit of colour to the board. |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 547
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 17, 2025 3:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| MarkK a écrit: | The question is, is it really worth having a special mechanism to cover the (very) rare instances that such a ruse was deployed?
Possibly, not least because a lot of the army list are very 'samey' and lack flavour. As there isn't the mechanic to disguise troops, I'm not sure I see the point of having them in the army list - other than adding a bit of colour to the board. |
If you wanted to add them in a game, as a house rule I'd suggest they should be represented as 1 model + a few armed attendants, all on a 40mm square (for 15mm) base.
They should be protection as +1, unmanouverable, move at 3UD, fight as MCamels (mediocre) and disorder like ordinary camels, but cost just 6pts each.
The Arab camels disguised as elephants ("monsters" is the word used in the translation?) were deployed on the second day at the (5-day) battle of Qadisiyyah (636 CE) verses the Sassanids, seem to have been used to frighten Persian horses. The Persian army had real war elephants amongst its ranks but it not known if the 'dummy' camels also frightened the elephants or vice-versa.
Also, according to ancient legend, Semiramis, the legendary queen of Assyrian, attempted to invade India, but her campaign was ultimately unsuccessful and ended in a disastrous defeat, with stories detailing how she used a strategy of creating fake elephants, by covering camels with buffalo hides, to deceive the Indian forces, but these were eventually discovered and she was forced to retreat. This invasion is often associated with a battle against an Indian king named Stabrobates (Supratika) as described by ancient Greek historian Diodorus Siculus.
"Observing that she was greatly inferior because of her lack of elephants, Semiramis conceived the plan of making dummies like these animals, in the hope that the Indians would be struck with terror because of their belief that no elephants ever existed at all apart from those found in India.
Accordingly she chose out three hundred thousand black oxen and distributed their meat among her artisans and the men who had been assigned to the task of making the figures, but the hides she sewed together and stuffed with straw, and thus made dummies, copying in every detail the natural appearance of these animals. Each dummy had within it a man to take care of it and a camel and, when it was moved by the latter, to those who saw it from a distance it looked like an actual animal (elephant)."
I think that there used to be a manufacturer that made 'dummy elephant' models - maybe it was part of the old Chariot Miniatures range that was sold by Magister Militant, but now that MM have stopped trading I am not sure if anybody else has bought the Chariot ranges.
The advantage of the Athenian oarsmen type 'dummy hoplites' was that you only paid for the unit as if they were Levy (mediocre) not as HF spear, armour. But I suspect you'd worked that out 
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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MarkK
Gladiateur
Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
Messages: 41
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 17, 2025 7:18 pm Sujet du message: |
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| I found a 3D printer that designed a flying carpet - maybe get it as a commander ;0 |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 564
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 17, 2025 11:19 pm Sujet du message: |
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| MarkK a écrit: | | I found a 3D printer that designed a flying carpet - maybe get it as a commander ;0 |
Essex do one in 15mm |
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