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Marches Constrained by Ambushes and Evaders
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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A4
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Inscrit le: 08 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 1:25 am    Sujet du message: Marches Constrained by Ambushes and Evaders Répondre en citant
A. Fake Ambushes

My Red command is the first to move. For its first pip a bunch of light infantry swarm towards an ambush marker and find that it is fake.

Hope I am right in thinking that the swarm cannot move again (ie march) that bound.

But who else can march (move more than once) that bound:

1. A Red unit who started within 4 UD of the ambush now revealed to be a dummy?

2. A Red unit who started beyond 4 UD from the ambush but whose march (second move) would take it to within 4 UD of where the fake ambush was placed?

3. My Blue command now moves. Can a Blue unit who started within 4 UD of the ambush now revealed to be a dummy march?

4. Can a Blue unit who started beyond 4 UD from the ambush but whose march (second move) would take it to within 4 UD of where the ambush was placed march?



B. Evading Skirmishers

Next bound, my Red command is the first to move. For its first pip a swarm of light infantry charge an enemy light infantry unit, who evades far away.

Obviously, the chargers cannot move again (ie march) that bound. Nor can anyone who moves within 4 UD of the new position of the enemy light - after his evade.

But who else can march (move more than once) that bound:

1. A Red unit who started within 4 UD of the original position of the enemy light infantry?

2. A Red unit who started beyond 4 UD from the the original position of the enemy lights but whose march (second move) would take it to within 4 UD of where the enemy was before it evaded away?

3. My Blue command now moves. Can a Blue unit who started within 4 UD of the the original position of the enemy light infantry march?

4. Can a Blue unit who started beyond 4 UD from the original position of the enemy light infantry but whose march (second move) would take it to within 4 UD of where the enemy light unit was before it evaded?

With thanks, Alan
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SteveR
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 5:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Look at page 29 for the definition of the Operational Zone.

And look at the first bullet under "multiple movements" on page 34

Finally look at page 77 to see when an ambush marker is removed.

As I read it,

1. No.

2. Yes

3. No

4. Yes
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 3:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Steve, you are correct if you apply a literal reading of the first bullet on page 34.
But that is not tenable, as it means as soon as an evading enemy ends under 4UD from a unit you have multiply-moved, your move has become illegal. Do you roll back the charge that caused the evade? Do you congratulate your opponent on their victory?
The Operational Zone will change as the enemy evades or reveals empty ambushes. The bullet must surely be read "while moving". So yes to all.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 4:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A4
Steve is helping you along.

To further. Look at p 34, left side 1st bullet. Multiple movements. "During the entire movement phase" So you must start your unit outside of where the enemy was and is.

Your answers B. When you say next bound, do you mean next turn or next corps of yours moving in the same movement phase?

A unit that started within tactical range of an enemy that turn that now is no longer in tactical range is still prohibited from moving more than once.

If a unit started moving outside tactical and its additional moves are outside of tactical of where enemy currently are then you may mutiple move. The only "memory" is where a unit began the movement phase.
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A4
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 7:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Really good of you to reply so quickly.

Hope I am right in taking from all the replies that the rules treat a disappearing ambush marker and an evading enemy identically?

Hazelbark, by "next bound" I was just trying to make a bit of narrative. We could substitute "on Sunday afternoon," without altering what I meant to say.

Steve, yours was the answer I was expecting.

Neep and Hazelbark, are you saying that a second (or march) move is prohibited in all these cases?

With thanks and best wishes, Alan
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 7:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alan, our (Dan's and my) opinions differ. In my view, so long as you start your moves 4 or more UD away, and remain that way, you can make multiple moves. No need to "remember" anything.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 7:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A4 a écrit:
Hazelbark, are you saying that a second (or march) move is prohibited in all these cases?


"all these cases" is an encompassing term.

A unit that starts outside of tactical and moves outside of tactical can make multiple moves. It does not worry once it starts moving where someone was. So if it starts outside tactical at the beginning of the entire movement phase, then moves to a place where an ambush was at the beginning of the turn but is gone before this unit started movement it is still eligible to keep multiple moves. I think that is the case you are asking.
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A4
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 9:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
A4 a écrit:
Hazelbark, are you saying that a second (or march) move is prohibited in all these cases?


"all these cases" is an encompassing term.

A unit that starts outside of tactical and moves outside of tactical can make multiple moves. It does not worry once it starts moving where someone was. So if it starts outside tactical at the beginning of the entire movement phase, then moves to a place where an ambush was at the beginning of the turn but is gone before this unit started movement it is still eligible to keep multiple moves. I think that is the case you are asking.


That's really good of you. It looks to hang on whose "entire movement phase" it is. Is it the unit's entire movement phase. Or the player's?

Let's say it's Jim's second bound. His Mauri Cetrati unit wants to march (make multiple moves). Earlier in Jim's second bound his Martiarii Iuniores have got within 1UD of an ambush marker and found nothing there.

If I understand you right, the Cetrati can only make a single move (cannot march) if they started Jim's second bound within 4UD of the ghost ambush.

However, if the Cetrati started Jim's bound two 6UD away from where the ambush marker was at the start of bound two they can march right through the ghost of the ambush marker.

In other words your answer to the original question will, like Steve's, be No, Yes, No, Yes.

I am glad that no one has sought to distinguish the ghost of an ambush marker from the footprint of a unit that has evaded away from before the Cetrati start to move. I think some of the confusion I have encountered with this stems from people reading the two cases differently. Similarly, nobody seems to mind whether the Cetrati is in the same command as the Martiarii or whether the Martiarii are in a different command which moved before the Cetrati's command rolled to move. Again, a confusion I have encountered.

With great thanks,

Alan
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 10:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The relevant text is as follows
Citation:
During the entire movement phase all units of the group must remain outside tactical distance (at exactly 4 UD or more) from all enemy units, including the camp or ambush markers. An enemy commander which is not included in a unit does not prevent multiple movements.
The issue being raised here is the term “entire movement phaseâ€, and how that affects the multiple movement of units, where a ‘dummy’ ambush marker has been removed or an enemy unit has evaded. 

If the Movement Phase covers all movement made by the player’s units, then technically it seems that even if the ambush marker has been removed or the unit evaded, other units are prevented from making multiple moves within 4UD of the point where the marker or unit was. This could be quite difficult to evaluate. 

If on the other hand the “movement phase†only relates to the movement of the group or unit at the point they are moved, this becomes much easier since the location of enemy units and ambushes is known and hence the movement can easily be evaluated. 
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 10:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
The relevant text is as follows
Citation:
During the entire movement phase all units of the group must remain outside tactical distance (at exactly 4 UD or more) from all enemy units, including the camp or ambush markers. An enemy commander which is not included in a unit does not prevent multiple movements.
The issue being raised here is the term “entire movement phaseâ€, and how that affects the multiple movement of units, where a ‘dummy’ ambush marker has been removed or an enemy unit has evaded. 

If the Movement Phase covers all movement made by the player’s units, then technically it seems that even if the ambush marker has been removed or the unit evaded, other units are prevented from making multiple moves within 4UD of the point where the marker or unit was. This could be quite difficult to evaluate. 

If on the other hand the “movement phase†only relates to the movement of the group or unit at the point they are moved, this becomes much easier since the location of enemy units and ambushes is known and hence the movement can easily be evaluated. 


Presented with those two options, I would hope any sane person wishing to play a game of soldiers with a living, breathing actual friend would choose the easier one.

I am sure there are people out there who might do otherwise, but each to their own I guess
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A4
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 21, 2023 11:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep and Madaxeman - are you saying that a unit only cares about what's within 4 UD of it at the instant it starts to move (and then, of course, during its move)? So that it would not matter if an ambush marker or a skirmisher had been within 4 UD of the putative marcher at the start of Jim's bound - provided they had been revealed as a dummy or chased-away before that particular unit stepped forward?

For what it's worth, in limited experience, I thought people played it more complicated, closer to the way Hazelbark and Ramses suggest - something like no, yes, no, yes to my original questions. Tho I guess that would - as Ramses points out - require players to remember where an ambush marker or evader had been. Which would be odd.

But if it is played simpler in competitions, that's much easier to remember and follow.

Thanks all for pondering on this,

Alan
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 22, 2023 3:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A4

I get the perspective of "at the moment" which is what it was in v3. And frankly mostly how i remember to play it. But the whole movement phase language seems clear to me. Whether that was intent or not is different.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 23, 2023 3:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The language around heavy foot moving 3UD is about the unit itself only, pg29, "...if it starts its movement...."? On the other hand multiple moves on page 34 considers "the entire movement phase".
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A4
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 23, 2023 5:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark's point about the wording changing from v 3 would explain why I have experienced this played in different ways. Perhaps some have adjusted to the letter of the new ed, while others stick to custom and practice.

Mike makes a good language-based point. Further to it, a grammarian might argue that if the phrase on p 34 ("During the entire movement phase all units of the group must remain outside the tactical distance ...") had been intended to refer just to the movement of the group, rather than to the player's movement phase as a whole, it would have referred to "their entire movement phase" rather than to "the entire movement phase."

But I wonder how fair it is to interrogate the language of a set of rules, esp one in translation, so closely?

An answer might be:

1. To see if this reflects a change in the original French.

2. And, if it does, to ask Herve whether the change is intentional.

With thanks, Alan




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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 28, 2023 2:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have ascended the mountain and returned with confirmation.

Units once (at any time during the player's own movement turn) within tactical may make only 1 move that player's turn.
Units allowed by above can keep moving a 2nd or 3rd time as long as they do not enter a tactical zone that exists at the moment of their individual movement.


Example
At the beginning of a player's turn: Unit A and B start outside of tactical from an ambush marker. Unit C starts inside tactical from ambush marker. Let's also say they are each of a different corps as that does not change anything.

Unit A moves up to 1 UD and reveals the ambush is empty and the marker is removed. Unit A may not move a 2nd time as it has entered tactical.

Unit B now moves right up next to A. B has not entered the tactical zone of any enemy so moves a 2nd time staying outside of tactical of any enemy not mentioned. It has never entered a tactical zone.

Unit C now moves. It can only move once, because it started the players movement turn within tactical.
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