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The Swiss
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Army lists
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 15, 2023 5:27 am    Sujet du message: The Swiss Répondre en citant
I have had a look at the Swiss lists on the Madaxeman's site does anyone have any other suggestions list construction ideas? Is anyone will the share advice on how to use the Swiss on the tabletop?

Thanks
Keith
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 16, 2023 1:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So the Swiss have to figure out how to keep someone in front of their pike.
I am assuming the post-1400, i think I prefer the Burgundian War 1477

Buy all 4 command points (12)
1 LH (6)
6 LI (24)
2 HKn (26)
4 Pk Mediocore (32)
4 Pk elite (52)
4 PK ordinary (44)
1 MI Polearm (7)
include 1 general in the KN (-3)

This gives you 22 units and a +3 on initiative. So size is right, you have a reasonable chance of attacking and 15 fighting widths

+0 included general
2 Hkn
1 LH
1-2 LI
[THis corps deploys first and should be set about 4 UD away from the end of where the Pike line will set up. Its job is either to tuck close to pike or stall an enemy drive to the flank. Either way this should be on the most open flank]

two nearly identical corps
+2
6 PK, (two of each)
2 or 3 LI
the MI goes with the Corps with more LI.
THe Corps with MI and possibly more LI is on the side with more terrain. The job is to just hold briefly while the Pike move past. Or failing that behind the pike to step out and protect the Pike flank by delaying a turn.

So your 12 wide pike. I would likley have the medicore massed in center unles i saw a foe with lots of really good foot like foot knights or armored 2HW.
Then I would do both elites and the ordiniary on outside.

I never included brilliant generals but do that in the middle of elite pikes is probably safe. That would give you 6 more points and those plus removing a mediocre pike would yield two more MI polearm. So you are net 23 units and 11 pike.

You can deploy the two pike corps with 1-2 UD gap as they can close that before anyone can close.

Then you drive forward as fast as you can into the meat of the enemy.

options:
give up an ordinary pike to get a fortified camp and upgrade units to elite.
Drop the two brilliant to competent and those 6 points upgrade, more MI, or more Elite.

3-4 MI with 1-2 as elite is actually more effective than people realize in period. The MI are stll dangerous to most enemy other than KN

Another variation buy just 1 KN and that does not have a general and floats aroudn to guard flank. THen you have a small corps with 2 elite pike and 1 LI that deploy in center of army

If you opponent is not agile to get out of your way. Invert and put your good pike in center and the mediocre pike stop to hold flanks.

Either way the plan is to recklessly move across open to attack enemy. Even having taken a loss pike are still dangerous.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 16, 2023 11:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Dan that was way more detailed than I was expecting - thank you. Like you I prefer Pike and the Burgundian War 1477 option.

Thanks
Keith
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 16, 2023 1:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have Later Swiss and I agree with a lot of what has been said

The biggest problem of the Swiss are Cavalry bow armies that shoot and evade ....and move around your flank to charge your rear.

Some additional advices

Include All generals.
I doubt that you loose the game..
because your Pikemen elite General is in melee.
You could also choose to have a Hi polearm * (General included) behind your frontline of pikemen

If you choose to have 1 free General.brilliant ..why not give him the 2 HKn 4 Pikemen mediocre and the Lc?

Always place the maximum pieces of terrain
woods
and steep hill (perhaps even covered with wood)
a coastline
or perhaps a village WITH a free street

Difficult terrain is a very good place for your 6? Li.
and woods will protect you from enemy missle fire

Think about whether to choose an unreliable ordinary sub general. Not the Lorraine Commander! ...BUT INSTEAD
as a commander for a "forlorn hope" infantry command
(1 to 2 Mi Polearm* + several Li)
They could be in ambush on your defensive flank (behind the crestline of a steep hill)
and will become reliable once the enemy advances on that flank
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 3:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would not do the unreliable forlorn hope. three points is not worth even a one turn delay.

The general in an included HI Polearm sort of ok. I worry more about the line being shorter by having them in the rear but a lot of enemy can't stand in front. It gives you a very slow fire brigade.

There is an argument of having a HI polearm on the outside of the line as a cheaper die slowly end of the line.

Shooty CV. This is why you want the LI in front of your pike. You can charge through your own LI then the LI moves and recovers the shield postion.

Yes on wood and all that difficult terrain. Of course you will NEVER hide in woods you hope the enmy is shooting from there for a -1. WHich reminds me always pick plantations not fields when forced to pick rough. Plantation can give a -1 to enemy shooters.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 4:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alexander I appreciate the input.

Dan thanks for the tip on the plantations. Though not convinced you should max out the terrain with the Swiss if you are not fighting a mounted enemy. Surely you risk break up the pike line and when fighting out of period there is a good chance your enemy will have troops that are good in terrain. In situations like this isn’t the tendency stay away from the terrain is to sit back and then their archers and light troops even if shooting at -1 will pick you a part?
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 5:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think the idea is you want a lot of difficult terrain which will slow down enemies trying to get around you and hopefully shorten the battle line a bit. Elite pikes are nice but they can’t be 30 wide. Lots of rough going is not much of a help this way (except perhaps against chariots) and can just create highways for enemy MI to get around you.
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 11:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Here some other list

General brilliant included*
4 Pikemen elite
4 Pikemen ordinary*

General brilliant included*
2 Heavy Knights impact*
4 Pikemen mediocre
1 (or 2) Lc crossbow

"Forlorn Hope"
General ordinary unreliable included*
2 Medium Swordsmen polearm elite*
4 Li crossbow

0(or 1) fortified camp


Dernière édition par ALEXANDER le Ven Fév 17, 2023 11:47 am; édité 1 fois
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 11:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
General ordinary included*
1 Heavy Knight impact*
4 Pikemen mediocre
1 Li crossbow

General brilliant included*
4 Pikemen elite*
2 LC crossbow

General brilliant included*
4 Pikemen ordinary*
2 Heavy Knight impact
2 Li crossbow

1 fortified camp
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 12:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Basically I want to say. We probably all know infantry versus cavalry advances. You advance along the coast to the enemy table edge and then turn the whole army and advance across the table plate. This works for armies with cheap infantry. The table is 80 cm deep. So you need 20 units to keep the front closed. But the Swiss is expensive and doesn't even have 20 combat units to do this anti-cavalry tactic.

That's why I think we should instead try to better let the opponent pass the pike through the gaps and then either drive him out of the table on the flanks or catch him in the center between 2 pike corps.
Or you stay at your own table edge and have your Li and Medium Swordsmen in the ambush in the middle of the battlefield. If the enemy advances to shoot at 2 UD...he will have these Medium Swordmen or Li behind his rear.
The Li can then prevent enemy LC from evading. The Medium Swordmen are able to prevent Medium Cavalry from evading.

Personally I think Pikemen ordinary and Pikemen elite are too expensive compared to Pikemen medicre or Heavy Knights impact. ...and the Polearm is just a waste of points compared to Medium Swordmen 2HW or Medium /Heavy Spearmen. I would love to have Medium / Heavy swordmen impetuous instead of polearm Wink
..and it would be nice to have 1 unit of MC crossbow instead of 2 units of LC crossbow.
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 2:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Or how do you like this list?

General brilliant 6
2 Heavy Knight 26
2 Li crossbow 8
3 Pikemen mediocre 24
1 LC crossbow 6

General ordinary included* -3
4 Pikemen elite 52
4 Heavy Swordmen polearm* 36

General ordinary included* -3
4 Pikemen ordinary* 44
1 Li crossbow 4
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2023 7:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think two brilliant generals for this army is too much. Sure more CPs is nice, but do you really need them?

Are the knights a weak point here? They are expensive but actually can be brittle.

Also, think Elie pikes are overkill. Have them on the “corners†but have the interior units as Ordinary. If you find you are losing a lot of interior or center pikes maybe being all Elite is worthwhile.

In contrast you might want to look at making the LI Elite Handgunners. It’s relatively cheap and at least I always find my lights suffer a disproportionate casualty rate which leaves the army closer to demoralization even when the heavies aren’t taking so many losses. If your only using lights as shield to protect your heavies from Missile fire while they close this might not be such an issue (but getting them shot up is still annoying and undermines army morale) but especially when I detach them to deal with or just delay threats coming through terrain or enemy lights lurking around my flanks and rear, I often take heavy losses among them. Being Elite makes Lights considerably more durable for not much of an investment in points. (If you have better self control and can avoid squandering your lights like I do then this might not be an issue for you.)
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