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Pikemen charge by shift and conform?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 23, 2023 5:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand your explanation now.

To make a legal charge there has to be an advance movement too
(as described on page 43, charge movement, sentence 2)
At least if the there just a corner to corner contact.
This is a general rule for All Units, not just for Pikemen
A slide or a turn that end in corner to corner contact might not be suficient to decide wether it is a contact with the front edge or flank edge.
I assume a wheel or an extension always counts as advance for this purpose

But if this contact is not a legal charge,
then the enemy does not have to evade either.
..and Li might even not be destroyed in open terrain.

An attacker might be forced to either wheel or do a half or quarter turn to make a legal attack.
This might result in different directions of attacks a separation of a group or even different evade moves direction.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 23, 2023 7:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I've followed this thread with interest. My initial thought was a slide could be performed legally and cause a contact constituting a charge, but I can see why there could be different views.

Regarding the latest posts I'm not clear why a charge has to have an element of forward movement greater than zero. P43, Charge movement, bullet 2 is far from clear on that. Conversely bullet 5 states an extension or contraction contacting enemy does constitute a charge, and no apparent need for forward movement there.

Is there somewhere that explicity states non-zero forward movement is necessary in a charge?

Note I am fully aware that a unit starting in contact with an enemy can conform to that enemy, but not charge it.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Guys, this as a true ‘corner case’ in all senses. 

Contacting an enemy (P41 types of contact) and the definition of a Charge (P42) both require a unit to contact the enemy with its front edge. So the question revolves around whether the corner is part of the front edge or the side edge. 

Reduced ad infinitum, the corner is both part of each edge and yet also not part of the other edge, so we need some other way to define things. 

It is my personal view that the direction of movement helps to define which edge is making contact, and thus how to define a corner to corner contact.

And to answer Alexander’s other questions, making contact with the enemy in some other way (by sliding sideways into contact) is not contacting the enemy on the unit’s front edge, and is therefore in my view an ‘illegal’ contact / manoeuvre - so these other issues do not arise. 

Could I also add a personal note of caution; most players, at least in my experience, do not bring compass, set square, theodolite (or other geometric instruments) to the warGame table. If in doubt over whether a target is in or out of charge range etc, placing that unit under a ZoC achieves almost the same result - and avoids lengthy debates that slow the game and spoil the fun. 
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 12:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Guys, this as a true ‘corner case’ in all senses. 

Contacting an enemy (P41 types of contact) and the definition of a Charge (P42) both require a unit to contact the enemy with its front edge. So the question revolves around whether the corner is part of the front edge or the side edge. 
 


This question is clearly answered on P42 Charge Definition. "The units must contact the enemy with part of its front edge (even a single corner)." This is qualified by the first special case "A corner-to-corner contact is sufficient only if the unit can then conform at least partially". Forward movement or direction of movement (except see below for Charge Range) are not referenced or needed.

If the enemy are already in frontal contact the sliding unit has achieved side edge simple support conformation so no further movement.

If the enemy are not in frontal contact the Charge Range rule (P42), 1st bullet applies. "The distance between the two closest points of the units is less than or equal to the movement allowance of the charging unit." In the direction of closest points the pike movement allowance is zero so cannot charge.

Sorry if I appear pedantic but I'm concerned a 'new rule' was being inadvertantly introduced.
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 12:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9rw8r4sixw2fd4/20230124_112742.jpg?dl=0

Here are some pictures of possible consequences.

Unit B (Light Cavalry) has moved exactly in a position 1 UD away
If unit 3 is Hi Spearmen it has to do a quarter turn and an advance to attack B. Heavy Infantry cannot reach B with a wheel and an advanve.

Heavy cavalry can choose to either do a quarterturn or a wheel + advance
The qroup 1 to 3 cannot slide and attack B as a group movement
It will thetefore split.

On the picture below B has passed beyond the frontline of 3

3 cannot do a quarter turn because there would be a corner to corner contact without an advance
And it would not be clear whether the attack was done woth the front egde oder side egde.
3 has instead to do a half turn and advance or wheel.
The attack is a flank attack

In addition I have a general question about this topic.
Is such a move...that ends in contact with an enemy without charging or beeing able to give support allowed?

Or is it possible to hinder the enemy from doing a slide by moving into this special position?
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Neep
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 10:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alexander,
I believe in your first example, units 3, 2, and 1 would 1/4 turn into a column. Unit 3 would reach B's corner and conform into B's front edge. Unit 2 could reach B's corner then, and conform into simple support next to unit 3. Unit 1 would then use its 1UD allowance to maintain the group by moving next to unit It would look like a 2UD slide to the right when all is said and done. (I'm not sure the referees would allow unit 3 to "move out of the way" to allow units 2 and 1 to conform that way.)

As to the second example, depends if a 1/4 turn is a forward impulse or not (same with 1/2 turn).

The situation is most likely to arise if the enemy is in line and several units evade away. It kind of takes the cooperation of your opponent.
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Neep
Javelinier


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 10:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I've followed this discussion closely.
I suggest it calls for a simple rule, like "A charge move to contact cannot conclude with a slide." And maybe add 1/4 and/or 1/2 turn too.
The situation doesn't seem all that likely to arise.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 11:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep a écrit:
I've followed this discussion closely.
I suggest it calls for a simple rule, like "A charge move to contact cannot conclude with a slide." And maybe add 1/4 and/or 1/2 turn too.
The situation doesn't seem all that likely to arise.

Theres an assumption that a charge by slide should not be allowed. Why? A similar type of charge can be achieved by an extension, and thats explicitly permitted.

I really don't see a problem here.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 11:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Alan. There are essentially three cases where a unit to the side of a target wishes to charge that target :-
  1. Where the charging unit is in front of the target’s front edge it slides and then advances into contact. No problem 
  2. Where the charging unit is behind the target’s front edge. Sliding sideways the unit moves into flank-to-flank contact. In my opinion the chargers are making a side contact rather than contacting with their front edge, as required in the rules.  
  3. Where the front edge of the chargers is on the same line as that of the target. This is the “edge” case that causes the issue. Is the contact side edge or front edge ??

As I suggested earlier, it is my opinion that the direction of movement defines which edge is making contact, so if the unit is moving forwards (or wheeling etc) it is a front contact - if it moves sideways it is a side contact. 

FWIW I do not see this as a ‘new rule’, rather an attempt to clarify things, though your views may differ. 
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Neep
Javelinier


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 24, 2023 11:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alan, don't disagree with you at all. It's arbitrary. If the DT wants to arbitrate, I'm all for it.

An extension is a slide followed by an advance. I don't think it's kosher to contact an enemy on the slide, but I guess that's up in the air too.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 9:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses, we're not in agreement on the rules interpretation, though I do agree we're both just trying to come to agreed understanding.

Ramses II a écrit:
There are essentially three cases where a unit to the side of a target wishes to charge that target :-
  1. Where the charging unit is in front of the target’s front edge it slides and then advances into contact. No problem 

Agreed
Ramses II a écrit:
  • Where the charging unit is behind the target’s front edge. Sliding sideways the unit moves into flank-to-flank contact. In my opinion the chargers are making a side contact rather than contacting with their front edge, as required in the rules.

  • Contact has been made, so the charging unit must immediately conform (P50 1st bullet). If the target is already in frontal contact with another unit the charger is already conformed for simple support, so ceases further movement. If there is no existing frontal contact then the charger conforms by turning its front edge gainst the enemy side edge following the rules on P52. However note a unit sliding in a charge must have enough movement to reach the target via the shortest route - and pikemen would have zero movement in the direction of the slide.
     
    Ramses II a écrit:
  • Where the front edge of the chargers is on the same line as that of the target. This is the “edge” case that causes the issue. Is the contact side edge or front edge ??

  • This case doesn't exist. If the front edge does not start past the enemy front edge it is a frontal attack, the same scenario as your case 1.

    Ramses II a écrit:
    As I suggested earlier, it is my opinion that the direction of movement defines which edge is making contact

    I don't agree. All that matters is where the charger started, ie did it start past the enemy front edge, and, only then, does it contact any part of the enemy side edge.

    I don't see any need to refer to direction of movement. Nor do I see any rule requiring a charge to have forward movement (though I can see the possible argument for such a rule in V5).


    Dernière édition par AlanCutner le Mer Jan 25, 2023 10:21 am; édité 1 fois
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    ALEXANDER
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    MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 9:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/frkxaew9h34lxwn/20230122_100326.jpg?dl=0

    The current status of the discussion is as follows.
    This movement is allowed, if a third unit C is charging the enemy B head-on. It's a move... not an attack. The movement ends in melee support. B will lose a cohesion point and fights with factor zero. This support case is important in order to decide which "rule" should apply in the event of an attack.
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    ALEXANDER
    Légionaire


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    MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 9:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1t8ep6hp47383b/20230122_115953.jpg?dl=0

    Possible attacks are discussed.
    As you can see, the starting position in case 3 is exactly the same as in the movement case above. My original question was therefore whether such an attack is also possible. To do this, unit A must slide and then conform.
    I did not understand why unit A is able to give a flank melee support but might not be able to charge on its own.

    I personally assumed that movement 2 is allowed.
    In that respect, I share Alan's opinion.
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    ALEXANDER
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    MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 10:14 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
    But now a discussion has broken out as to whether Attack 2 is also prohibited. It is said that in case of a corner contact, an additional forward movement is required. (to determine whether the corner is part of the front or side)
    In case 2, A and B are each not behind the enemy's front line. Neither unit can make a flank attack. However, it is argued that when unit A slides, it attacks with its flank and not its front. Therefore, this attack should be banned.

    I pointed out that under this condition (of a additional necessary forward movement) even some quarter turn attacks might be forbidden.
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    Ramses II
    Magister Militum


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    MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 10:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
    ALEXANDER a écrit:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/frkxaew9h34lxwn/20230122_100326.jpg?dl=0

    The current status of the discussion is as follows.
    This movement is allowed, if a third unit C is charging the enemy B head-on. It's a move... not an attack. The movement ends in melee support. B will lose a cohesion point and fights with factor zero. This support case is important in order to decide which "rule" should apply in the event of an attack.
    We have already discussed this, and it may indeed be a plausible way for pike to provide support to an existing melee. 

    Both, the rules are very clear that units may only contact the enemy on the their front edge. Conformation only takes place after a legal contact, Alan, and I still contend that sliding sideways into contact is therefore illegal, since contact is being made on the side rather than the front. 

    As we are repeating ourselves, I have nothing else to say


    Dernière édition par Ramses II le Mer Jan 25, 2023 10:31 am; édité 1 fois
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