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Interpenetration
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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micheni
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 11
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 08, 2021 5:10 pm    Sujet du message: Interpenetration Répondre en citant
Srry if it has already discussed but i couldnt find any post about it.

A light infantry is 2 UD in front of a friendly Heavy infantry base ,( front to front ). The light infantry is getting charged so it has to evade.
It rolls 1 so it has to evade move 2 UDs. But the 2 UD move leaves the light infantry base ON the friendly HI base. The front of the light infantry reached the center of the HI base but didnt manage to pass a bit the rear of the HI. What is the rule for interpenetration here_;

1. Does the light infantry extends its move the minimum necessary to fully cross and pass behind the HI ;
2. Is the evade move cancelled because the light infantry move is too short to at least partially cross over the HI rear;
3. What if there are other troops that can interpenatrate each other but in same situation of not enough move distance to partially cross to the opposite side ;

Thx in advance
Dimi
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 08, 2021 5:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK. So the LI moves 2 UD back which would just get it past the front edge of the HI but is not enough to get it past the HI's rear edge. All the bullets points of p39 apply in case the interpenetrating units CAN get past the rear edge of the interpenetrated unit but do not have enough move to clear it. Therefore, none of the bullet points apply to the LI and we move on to the final paragraph which tells you the LI cannot go through.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 08, 2021 7:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[Revised for correctness]
I believe when they are 1UD from the HI they would slide whatever remaining MA necessary to avoid interpenetrating the HI, otherwise they would start to wheel up to 90° using their remaining MA. (Page 49)


Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Mer Déc 08, 2021 8:28 pm; édité 1 fois
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babyshark
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2015
Messages: 134
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 08, 2021 7:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
I believe when they are 1UD from the HI they would start to wheel up to 90° using their remaining MA.


No.

Snowhitsky is correct. The procedure is laid out very clearly in the rules. The LI do not wheel, slide, or do anything other than interpenetrate their friendly HI.

Marc
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 08, 2021 11:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowhitsky a écrit:
OK. So the LI moves 2 UD back which would just get it past the front edge of the HI but is not enough to get it past the HI's rear edge. All the bullets points of p39 apply in case the interpenetrating units CAN get past the rear edge of the interpenetrated unit but do not have enough move to clear it. Therefore, none of the bullet points apply to the LI and we move on to the final paragraph which tells you the LI cannot go through.


So the LI is placed directly in front of the HI (having only moved 1 UD) and is presumably caught and massacred by the chargers?

OTOH, if the evading LI had only been able to get their toenails to the other side of the HI (because they started with their front base edge <2.0 UDs from the front edge of the HI) they would pop through though, right?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 1:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yep, and it does not seem unreasonable. If the skirmishers are too close to the battle lines it gets dangerous. The heavies do not open their ranks to let them through, to do so would be inviting disaster with enemy chasing close behind.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 1:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Guys please read the Evade move process before confusing things further.
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Dave_r
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 9:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="Mike Bennett"]Yep, and it does not seem unreasonable. If the skirmishers are too close to the battle lines it gets dangerous. The heavies do not open their ranks to let them through, to do so would be inviting disaster with enemy chasing close behind.[/quote]

But that is exactly what happened historically - the light foot would be shooting at the incoming infantry and then retire through the ranks? Can you name me a battle where the main battle line of an army lost because of light foot passing through it with the enemy close behind?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 1:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That’s because the lights didn’t live to tell the tale  Very Happy

Seriously, Snowhitsky is correct. Since the Light infantry cannot get at least partially through the Heavy infantry, it cannot interpenetrate. 

However, since this is the case, the LI could try to dodge the charge by following the Evade process. Here they would effectively evade 1UD and slide 1UD to clear the edge of the HI. 
The chargers would then move forwards, contact the corner of the LI, conform and, if they are heavier, would destroy them (p62). 

Either way, assuming this all takes place in open terrain, the LI are destroyed by a heavier unit that is charging with the intention of contacting the HI, and which actually ends up contacting the intervening LI instead. 

And while this may not feel ‘historical’, I am sure there were instances where skirmishing light troops got caught between battle lines, a minor detail probably expected in the circumstances, thus not worthy of comment. 
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 2:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
All hope is not completely gone, as the charging HI started 2UD from the LI and would have to make their extension roll.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 2:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
All hope is not completely gone, as the charging HI started 2UD from the LI and would have to make their extension roll.


If the enemy start at 2ud they are to all intents and purposes pretty much always safe. The LI will never move less than 1ud, unless the troops behind blocking the evade are more than 1ud deep (only warwagons)
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 09, 2021 2:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dave_r a écrit:
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Yep, and it does not seem unreasonable. If the skirmishers are too close to the battle lines it gets dangerous. The heavies do not open their ranks to let them through, to do so would be inviting disaster with enemy chasing close behind.


But that is exactly what happened historically - the light foot would be shooting at the incoming infantry and then retire through the ranks? Can you name me a battle where the main battle line of an army lost because of light foot passing through it with the enemy close behind?


Frequently I have read of lights retiring through the ranks quite early to avoid getting trapped. They would retire before things got to close as they knew the consequences otherwise.
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Ballista
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 10, 2021 11:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes but the LI can interpenetrate the HI - it's an allowable interpenetration.

Just because the fail to clear them doesn't stop them being able to do this

So how would they be able to treat the HI as a friendly unit they could not interpenetrate.
If it was LH then yes slide round them. LI no

Seems some people are interpreting interpenetration (!! now that's a mouthful) differently.

So which is it ?
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 10, 2021 2:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
What happens if there are two ranks of HI and the LI can just clear the front rank but not the second?
Would the rear rank stop the LI and thus the front rank be moved forward to make room?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 10, 2021 4:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ballista a écrit:
Yes but the LI can interpenetrate the HI - it's an allowable interpenetration.

Just because the fail to clear them doesn't stop them being able to do this

So how would they be able to treat the HI as a friendly unit they could not interpenetrate.
If it was LH then yes slide round them. LI no

Seems some people are interpreting interpenetration (!! now that's a mouthful) differently.

So which is it ?


The question is "Do the rules allow you to interpenetrate them?"

It's a yes or no question with a yes or no answer.

There is no "I got a letter from Phil Barker in 1978" 3rd option.

(Do we seriously want to start asking whether an evading LH treat meeting a cavalry unit that is in combat "could" interpenetrate them if the situation was different to what it actually is?)
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