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Charges within enemy ZoC
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 3:51 am    Sujet du message: Charges within enemy ZoC Répondre en citant
My HC is within your LC ZoC. I want to pay 1 CP and charge your LC (i.e. I will NOT make a spontaneous charge which must be “straight aheadâ€). Can I declare a wheel at the start of my charge (inside your ZoC) so that I can force your second LC to also evade?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 11:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think we need a picture here. 

However, to answer the question as written, when in the ZoC of the most threatening enemy, the only wheel (or other movement) permitted is to align more closely with that unit. The end result of such manoeuvres must be that any conformation after contact is made will result in a melee with that (most threatening) unit. If the target evades, then obviously the chargers may contact a different enemy. 

What you seem to be asking is whether you can pay the 1CP to change the facing of the unit, under the above constraints, to enable it to contact a second enemy should the first evade.

As far as I am aware, there is no compulsion to make a ‘spontaneous charge’ so the player can theoretically pay the 1CP within these constraints to change the unit facing. 
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 8:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Ramses - how do I upload a photo please?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 8:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
…..However, to answer the question as written, when in the ZoC of the most threatening enemy, the only wheel (or other movement) permitted is to align more closely with that unit. The end result of such manoeuvres must be that any conformation after contact is made will result in a melee with that (most threatening) unit. If the target evades, then obviously the chargers may contact a different enemy. 

…. 


I was amazed when this was first bought up, as I agreed with you and I though it was obvious. Then I read the rules.

This question is specifically for the case where the unit in the ZoC is charging it’s most threatening enemy, not for where it is advancing without contact, which are 2 distinct bullet points. I cannot find limitations like those required in an advance written in the rules for charges. Possibly they may be inferred from that next bullet point on advancing without contact and/or by assumptions about the authors intention. Going strictly by the rules as written, where do these limitations that you quote come from please?

RELEVANT RULES QUOTES
I agree that for page 36, bullet point 3 to advance without contact as you quote there are significant restrictions on wheeling, leaving the ZoC or sliding. However for bullet point 2 on charging there are no such limitations written.

The question then is what is Herve’s intention

1. Have I missed anything written that specifically forbids clever manoeuvres by a charger in a ZoC, provided that the most threatening enemy would be contacted if he stands. It could be that this is my error, and they do indeed exist.
2. is this intentional by the author, to allow wheels, allowing other targets to be opened up, if the most threatening enemy evades. This stops a unit from being able to protect other troops by limiting the chargers options and then getting away scot free by evading
3. Was it not specifically written as Herve considered it to be so obvious that it was not required to spell it out
4. Was it a genuine oversight as no one had thought of this as an option?
5…..

I suggest that we need Herve’s opinion unless I have missed a limitation on a charger written in the rules.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 11:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Is this the situation you're asking about?





It was dealt with at some length in 2017. The answer was, and remains:

Red can't wheel in the direction shown because the rule doesn't allow it to become less aligned to Blue (its Most Threatening Enemy). Once it becomes parallel the wheel must cease. This is regardless of whether Red is charging Blue or just moving closer. Also of whether Blue evades or stands.

The reasoning behind this is that the ZoC rules are there to stop units dicking around in the presence of the enemy. So if a move looks like dicking around (for instance the second diagram) and isn't one of the exceptions or special cases, you can't go far wrong if you assume it's not allowed.

No doubt this will be covered by a new FAQ in due course.

Dave

PS Zoltan, I think you can link to images from your website if you have one. If not you can upload them to a service like imgur.com and link to them there.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 13, 2021 12:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Dave Allen.

Yes, what you have illustrated is essentially the situation, thank you. I guess there are a couple of permutations:

1. I start perfectly aligned (parallel) with the MTE - can I wheel (within the MTE's ZoC) at the start of my charge (hoping to catch uncovered targets if the MTE evades) - you say "no". Once aligned you may not wheel to be less aligned.

2. I start on an angle with the MTE (as you have illustrated) - can I wheel at the start of my charge etc etc - you say "yes" but only up to the point where I become "aligned with" (aka parallel) the MTE.

V.4 p.36 bullet 2 just says "Charge the most threatening enemy..." without any explicit constraints. References to "alignment" are only included in bullet 3 in relation to non-contact moves. The p.43 charge section permits turns and wheels which "must comply with ZoC rules" - this coda is a bit cryptic and tends to get circular pointing back to p.36 bullet 2.

Under V.3 (p.34) the charge scenario was in the same bullet point as the non-contact movement options so the ZoC constraints clearly applied to all kinds of movement. Sounds like the intention under V.4 was to continue to constrain charges in the same way that non-contact moves are constrained, but there may have been an unintended editing glitch - it would be good if Herve could explicitly confirm that (please). FAQ admin can come later (if required).

PS. thanks for the diagram linking advice.
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