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Integrated Light Artillery
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Colin Whittaker
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Inscrit le: 11 Mai 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 7:07 am    Sujet du message: Integrated Light Artillery Répondre en citant
We had a game last night with my Early Imp Romans and I decided to try out the integrated light artillery

In firing it worked well, but the rules are rather ambiguous when it comes to movement and combat, and how to treat the integrated light artillery which is behind the HI.

Two issues in particular:

1. When the HI are outside 4UD they can move at 3UD, but does this include the Integrated artillery that are moving behind them, or do they move at their own speed? We decide no it did not it moved at its own movement rate.
2. When the HI charge forward can the integrated light artillery be left behind to their own devices and be treated as a single element in its own right? we decided to leave it behind as its own unit

Two issues that did not occur and which should be considered are:

3. What happens if the HI to the front are destroyed does that impose a cohesion point loss on the integrated artillery?
4. Can an integrated artillery unit move independently and join a HI unit to its rear and then count integrated with the HI and fire over it?

Our thinking is that the integrated is not a support unit, and for all intents and purposes it should be treated as a single unit, but this does cause issues at point 3.

I am sure that there may be other cases where a degree of clarification would be useful
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daveallen
Tribun


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Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 8:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Colin,

They worked well? Uh oh!

1) Yes.

They are in their own category, different to HI (p12)

2) Yes.

They are a completely independent unit and paid for as such. Not good to have them stuck behind a unit in melee. Although they can shoot over a unit in simple support.

3) Yes, if they were in the shooting position or within a UD.

If the routed unit had missile support figures increasing its depth, artillery able to shoot over them are actually positioned behind the main base (page 8 ) and can be caught by pursuers.

4) Yes.

They can also move away at will and can shoot as normal light artillery.


Six Roman, one Judean and two Palmyran armies able to field them in York this weekend. Should make things "interesting" for my Parthians Crying or Very sad

Dave
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Dernière édition par daveallen le Jeu Juin 24, 2021 9:03 am; édité 5 fois
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 8:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Colin Whittaker a écrit:
We had a game last night with my Early Imp Romans and I decided to try out the integrated light artillery

In firing it worked well, but the rules are rather ambiguous when it comes to movement and combat, and how to treat the integrated light artillery which is behind the HI.

Two issues in particular:

1. When the HI are outside 4UD they can move at 3UD, but does this include the Integrated artillery that are moving behind them, or do they move at their own speed? We decide no it did not it moved at its own movement rate.
2. When the HI charge forward can the integrated light artillery be left behind to their own devices and be treated as a single element in its own right? we decided to leave it behind as its own unit

Two issues that did not occur and which should be considered are:

3. What happens if the HI to the front are destroyed does that impose a cohesion point loss on the integrated artillery?
4. Can an integrated artillery unit move independently and join a HI unit to its rear and then count integrated with the HI and fire over it?

Our thinking is that the integrated is not a support unit, and for all intents and purposes it should be treated as a single unit, but this does cause issues at point 3.

I am sure that there may be other cases where a degree of clarification would be useful


Sounds like you've gotten it all correct. "Integrated" artillery is simply Light Artillery that has the added capability that it can fire over some types of infantry - that's all there is to it, and that's all that is stated in the section on "Artillery" on p15.

Shooting over some infantry is the only special rule they have anywhere in the book, so there's no reason why all of the other rules for artillery wouldn't still apply to it in all of the situations you describe.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 8:14 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Integrated artillery is a normal light artillery unit that has the extra ability to shoot from the position of the unit in front (choice restricted by list).

It moves at its own speed so can be left behind.
If not left behind it can be in the danger zone behind a melee and suffer the consequences.

Edit wasn't show above answers before I write.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 4:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:


2) Yes.

They are a completely independent unit and paid for as such. Not good to have them stuck behind a unit in melee. Although they can shoot over a unit in simple support.



Dave, the bit "shoot over a unit in simple support" I am trying to understand the rule you are referencing here. Can you flag it for me?
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fdunadan
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 4:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
p 59. No limit is made to the position of the unit, apart "just in front". You obviously can't fire on an enemy unit in melee with the integrated infantry, but no restrictions is made if it is only in support.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 5:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
daveallen a écrit:


2) Yes.

They are a completely independent unit and paid for as such. Not good to have them stuck behind a unit in melee. Although they can shoot over a unit in simple support.



Dave, the bit "shoot over a unit in simple support" I am trying to understand the rule you are referencing here. Can you flag it for me?


I assume it is saying that if the unit it is behind is in simple support it can still shoot over them. I guess that it is not saying that their shooting provides a simple support factor.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 5:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I did not think it adds a support factor. I didn't think Dave was saying that. Rather than me putting words and/or rules into Dave's mouth, I am trying first to understand his point.
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 24, 2021 7:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
I did not think it adds a support factor. I didn't think Dave was saying that. Rather than me putting words and/or rules into Dave's mouth, I am trying first to understand his point.

Yes, I thought they could shoot over a unit that is itself fighting as simple support, not that their shooting was simple support.

Unless shooting "with no restrictions" over the unit they're behind means something else.

Dave
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Colin Whittaker
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 25, 2021 9:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the replies, I am glad our reasoning seems to be correct. A possible note of clarification in the FAQ might not go amiss

regards

Colin
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 01, 2021 5:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If one measures the range from the unit in front of the artillery, then it's as if the artillery piece has been moved to the front rank to shoot so if it's an overlap in melee it can't be a shooter or target.

BUT

It's the rule designers choice how it's represented and played.

Fascinated to see how it goes.

Did it crop up at York at all?
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fdunadan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 01, 2021 6:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In fact, no. When you have a unit behind a fortification or stakes , the shooting range is determined from the front of the fortification or stake. That doesn't mean the bowers are in front of their own stakes...

Integrated artillery represents a combination of troops, and the artillery part can be mounted on wagons, or specially trained so can shoot over their own troops. And it's a game, not a exact simulation of reality.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 01, 2021 7:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand that.

It's obvious men standing in front of you gives you extra range.
Just as a certain drink gives you wings..
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 01, 2021 7:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If supporters can be shot over but not shot at then integrated artillery are available to be shot at too.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 03, 2021 8:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is a debate going on about shooting over a unit actually in combat, which does not seem to be forbidden by the rules either.
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