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Neo Babylonian Camels without Bow
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 26, 2021 4:23 am    Sujet du message: Neo Babylonian Camels without Bow Répondre en citant
This seems to be one of the few lists that can take the Bedouin Camelry this way.

So who are these non-bow armed camelry supposed to represent, and where can one find figures for them?
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player
Javelinier


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 08, 2022 6:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
obviously and error as all Bedouin camelry have bows in the biblical period
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 09, 2022 12:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
player a écrit:
obviously and error as all Bedouin camelry have bows in the biblical period
No, the entry is correct. Bow armed camels were considered overpowered so were made mediocre. The alternative entry of camels without bows provides a choice. You will find that this change has been applied consistently throughout the lists

Unfortunately, I cannot recall any models for the latter unit, though others may be able to give some pointers. 
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 09, 2022 7:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Essex have a spear-armed camel command pack in their biblical range. They also have some spear-armed camel riders in their arab conquest range, but these are obviously dressed for a later period.

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Javelinier


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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 28, 2023 4:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The reason there are no models for Biblical period camel riders with javelin is that there is no historical evidence for such warriors - only bows
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 28, 2023 6:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So as posted. Essex has made a figure on camels for many decades without a bow.

"As someone who was present at over 472 battles in the greater Mesopotamia region between 1300-500 BC i can assure you i saw many formations of camel mounted troops that did not have bows." --Methuselah


As general point which was made in V3 camels were both very good shooters, very good anti-mounted melee troops and could run over MI and were thus too powerful. The idea that was decided was to make camels have to choose to be more missile oriented or not.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 03, 2023 7:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
So as posted. Essex has made a figure on camels for many decades without a bow.


A figure in the command pack doesn't exactly help much... unless one wants to buy a bunch of command packs.

Citation:
As general point which was made in V3 camels were both very good shooters, very good anti-mounted melee troops and could run over MI and were thus too powerful. The idea that was decided was to make camels have to choose to be more missile oriented or not.


Why, though? If they were historically armed with bows, let them be mediocre medium camels with bow, period. I've played a couple of battles with my Babylonians since painting them, and the troop type has its uses (though you have to be -very- careful with them).
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 03, 2023 7:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
player a écrit:
The reason there are no models for Biblical period camel riders with javelin is that there is no historical evidence for such warriors - only bows


Then that's what they should be classified as. And if they weren't that effective, then they should be mediocre.

Come to think of it, the whole idea of camelry as cavalry killers is probably one of those wargamer myths that refuses to go away.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 03, 2023 5:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Jhykronos a écrit:


Come to think of it, the whole idea of camelry as cavalry killers is probably one of those wargamer myths that refuses to go away.



Some truth to what you say here. It would be great if there was a documented list where so much of this originates. I remember Phil Barker caused an uproar in one edition because he wanted cavalry to move through woods at a high speed. His argument was that Russian cavalry formations moved through woods during World War Two.


At a certain point, the scope of 3000 years of history is enhanced by having options like Camels as long as they are not overpowered. I think they are not overpowered currently.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 03, 2023 5:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I too am dubious they were so effective versus cavalry. But the evidence, such as it is, is mixed.

However, re. not being overly effective - I think they are very effective given their cost against enemies that rely principally on mounted but not so useful against armies relying most on foot. Whether they are overly effective for their cost really only matters for armies with a substantial number of camels - it doesn’t really matter for armies with just a handful of them it doesn’t really matter. Further armies with a substantial number of hose mounted cavalry in addition to their camels can find it tricky to coordinate both horse and camel mounted troops without causing headaches for their owner. Getting the point cost right is tricky.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 03, 2023 6:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Over the 1000+ years of Arab and other conquests in the Middle East and around the northern African shores it is notable that the horse was widely used in favour of the camel. 

I don’t know the reasons why that should be, but this may be another case where wargame mythology has triumphed over history. 

That said, ADLG is primarily a game, and the key question is whether the camel units are now balanced from the perspectives of both the user and his opponent. 
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 04, 2023 9:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In the Balkans in the C15th the Ottomans use camels to disorganised their Christian opponents cavalry. Either by having tethered camels in their field Fortifications & Fortified camps or (as at Nicroplis) driving herds of camels at their opponents.
The Moors use tethered camels to disrupt Byzantine cavalry.
Neither appear to fight mounted from camels.

Personally, having had the misfortune to have ridden a camel at high speed!, t provides a really unstable platform to do just about anything. Admittedly, I was not an experienced camel 'jockey' but I'd personally have all camels as mediocre! Shocked Shocked Shocked

I also suspect that like Ottoman cavalry, once a horses gets used to the smell & sight of camels, they pretty much ignore them. So I'd suggest that in armies like the various levantine Biblical armies where Arab allies were common that most horses would be pretty much immune to any adverse effect of fighting or being deployed next to camels.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 04, 2023 5:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Over the 1000+ years of Arab and other conquests in the Middle East and around the northern African shores it is notable that the horse was widely used in favour of the camel.  


Furthermore, the horse was preferred over the camel despite the fact that the Arab's opponents were often horse cavalry powers themselves. Oh, and during the initial conquests, despite having plenty of camels to go around, the Arabs by preference fought on foot on the battlefield.
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