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Warwagons
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 10, 2021 8:15 pm    Sujet du message: Warwagons Répondre en citant
You can make them "battle ready". No guidance on how you represent that. Presumably you need mantlets / chains / some means of showing it?

Also there is an illustration on how to turn a group of two. Can that become battle ready or do you have to do each one individually? I presume you can pay the extra pip to ready both together along with the turn?
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MC_Delicatessen
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 11, 2021 6:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'm gonna use slinky fake jewellery chain. I figure that's easy to drop on the base.

Great question about battle ready pips. My guess is it's one pip per WW, and you cannot make a whole group of WW battle ready for one pip, but I know nothing!
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 12, 2021 9:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Also I presume you can declare battlewagons to be "battle ready" when you deploy at the start???
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 13, 2021 7:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK I have had a good read of the rules and I think we need some clarification.

Page 31 on turns says turns "cost 2 UD for Unmanouverable units, WWG, pikemen and cataphracts". So a turn uses their forward move and they turn on the spot. Therefore on rough terrain WWg cannot turn as they only have 1 UD move.

Page 14 says they become battle ready for 1 CP, and can also turn on the spot for a further 1 CP. Total 2.
The play sheet says a turn is difficult, so should cost 2 CP.
Page 34 does not list Warwagons as unmanouverable so turns are not difficult.
So the play sheet is wrong and Warwagons can turn on the spot for 1 CP?

Page 32 says a group of 2 can turn into a line on the spot with one sliding. Cost 1 CP?

Does the 1 CP to become battle ready apply to one only, or to a group? (This matters for Hussites!)

Can they be deployed battle ready at the start?

Watch out for impetuous levy. If they start more than 4 UD from the enemy they move 3 UD so slowing them down to move with the Warwagons is difficult!
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 13, 2021 9:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
JohnTheBoring a écrit:
OK I have had a good read of the rules and I think we need some clarification.

Page 31 on turns says turns "cost 2 UD for Unmanouverable units, WWG, pikemen and cataphracts". So a turn uses their forward move and they turn on the spot. Therefore on rough terrain WWg cannot turn as they only have 1 UD move.

Page 14 says they become battle ready for 1 CP, and can also turn on the spot for a further 1 CP. Total 2.
The play sheet says a turn is difficult, so should cost 2 CP.
Page 34 does not list Warwagons as unmanouverable so turns are not difficult.
So the play sheet is wrong and Warwagons can turn on the spot for 1 CP?

Page 32 says a group of 2 can turn into a line on the spot with one sliding. Cost 1 CP?

Does the 1 CP to become battle ready apply to one only, or to a group? (This matters for Hussites!)

Can they be deployed battle ready at the start?

Watch out for impetuous levy. If they start more than 4 UD from the enemy they move 3 UD so slowing them down to move with the Warwagons is difficult!

If you check the first paragraph of "difficult manoeuvres"(p34) you will find that multiple causes do not add additional penalties. so that is why the turn and getting battle ready still only costs 2CP.

Getting battle ready applies to the group, in the same way that a unit preparing stakes costs 1CP for the group. The WWg or group has to spend another 1CP to remove the defences and become mobile. (p14). And Yes, the WWg may start the battle in a 'battle-ready' state, but would have to remove the defences before it can move.

Moving across rough is not recommended for WWg for the reasons you note, but they can change formation (and become battle-ready) if necessary. In this case the second bullet under "restrictions"(p34) applies; the relevant units become disordered (unless they are already disordered).

And finally, WWg may form a group with impetuous foot, moving at the speed of the WWg. However if the Impetuous foot get into charge range of enemy, the player may have to use 3CP to move them or risk the group splitting up - especially as WWg may not initiate a charge (p14) . . .
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 13, 2021 9:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
JohnTheBoring a écrit:
You can make them "battle ready". No guidance on how you represent that. Presumably you need mantlets / chains / some means of showing it?

Also there is an illustration on how to turn a group of two. Can that become battle ready or do you have to do each one individually? I presume you can pay the extra pip to ready both together along with the turn?
Indicating how WWg are "battle-ready" is not clear. At present, some form of counter may be needed. However, adding some form of base containing 'stakes, chains and mantelets' may work. Note you would have to add them to both sides of the WWg, which should be re-positioned slightly to ensure the front edge of these defences is where the WWg base was located, in the same way as stakes are shown (p20).

However, this should be clarified by Patrick or El Kreator.
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 13, 2021 10:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK but page 34 does not say turning is difficult as warwagons are not in the list, only the play sheet. Which is right? I see nothing in the main rules to say a turn cost more than 1 CP.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 13, 2021 10:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P34 describes the effects of difficult manoeuvres, while p35 lists the specific cases including WWg . . .
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hcaille
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 14, 2021 6:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
To summarize :

- A WWg is not considered as an Unmaneuvrable unit

- When a WWg makes a 1/4 or 1/2 turn, it cost 2 UD of movement (but only 1 CP)
This can be done by a group of 2 WWg as indicated p 32

- A WWg can becomes battle-ready by spending 1 CP
It can be done in the same time as a 1/4 or 1/2 turn and in this case it cost 2 CP
It can be done by a group of WWg

Note : This is to allow a WWg to deploy and be battle ready in the same turn.
Otherwise it is too long to use WWg as it appears during test games.

- To represent a battle ready WWG you can place a fortification along it or put a marker or just say it to your opponnent

Update by HCE on 27/11/2021
- If you are more than 4 UD from the ennemy, impetuous HI movement allowance is 3 UD instead of 2 UD
So Impetuous HI can move with WWG at 2 UD but for 2 CP because they don't do their full move


Very Happy


Dernière édition par hcaille le Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am; édité 1 fois
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 14, 2021 8:01 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Indeed. That is pretty much what I was saying. In V4 they have been dropped from the list of unmanouverables but a turn now costs 2 UD.
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 14, 2021 10:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Still the question: Can you deploy as battle ready at the start?

Thanks
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 17, 2021 7:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
JohnTheBoring a écrit:
Still the question: Can you deploy as battle ready at the start?

Thanks


The answer is yes.
Some questions are obvious. Units with stakes can also deploy with the stakes deployed at start.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 27, 2021 8:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The rules also state that a War Wagon can remove the Battle Ready condition then move on the same turn.

Could they also move first, then spend another CP to become battle ready on the same turn?
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hcaille
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There was an error in my previous answer so I update it

Sorry Embarassed
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Jhykronos a écrit:
The rules also state that a War Wagon can remove the Battle Ready condition then move on the same turn.

Could they also move first, then spend another CP to become battle ready on the same turn?


Yes
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