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Supporting a flanked unit
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Viking709
Archer


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2015
Messages: 50

MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 15, 2017 11:25 pm    Sujet du message: Supporting a flanked unit Répondre en citant

(CC) is a cat that has conformed on the flank of a Roman swordsman (11). The Roman does not turn to face the cat until after the Meele is resolved. I take this as the authors way of reminding players that it was flank attack/conform (22) is facing the cat and corner to corner contact with the cat. The question Is he supporting (11) as (11) is fighting the cat and (22) would be in a supporting position
C
(11)C
2
2
I tried to down load a picture but no luck

Walt
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Viking709
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Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 16, 2017 12:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Try this again

(1)C
2

(1) is Roman unit that the Cat C has confirmed on the flank and 2 is another Roman unit facing towards the C and in corner to cornet contact
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Ramses II
Signifer


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 349
Localisation: London

MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 16, 2017 2:18 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

A very good question.
Here is the position you describe, with unit "1" facing up the page, unit "2" facing right and in corner to corner contact with enemy Cataphracts "C" which are facing left (the arrows indicate the unit's facing).

^^
11<CC
11<CC
22>
22>

Rules as Written, the answer is that "2" cannot provide support for its neighbour because it does not fulfill any of the three conditions for Support on page 50 (facing the flank of the enemy that the friend is fighting, or oriented with the friend and in corner-to-corner or flank-to-flank contact with the enemy that the friend fighting).

That said, this seems odd.
Assuming that "1" survives this round of combat, it will conform on "C" at the end of the turn. At that point, "2" will then be deemed to be in support merely because it would now be oriented in the same direction, even though "2" has not moved or done anything else to achieve this.

Perhaps Patrick or someone in the DT can review this and explain further.
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Longtooth
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
Messages: 76
Localisation: London

MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 16, 2017 8:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Unit 22 cannot provide support during the initial combat phase. As Ramses points out below, however, this unit will provide support after Unit 11 conforms to face Unit CC.

Further to the above, I would question whether Unit CC is even allowed to attack in the first place, as it makes contact with Unit 22 whilst conforming to Unit 11.

Jesse
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Ramses II
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 16, 2017 10:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hi, the question of attacking the flank of units that are less than 40mm deep was answered in the FAQ at the top of p7.
Essentially, the target units are spread out to allow the charging unit(s) each to contact the flank of a single unit.

So here, unit "1" would be moved slightly down the page.
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Hazelbark
Légat


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 598

MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 17, 2017 5:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

You've got this figured out.

You don't' get it until you are supposed to get it.
Very Happy
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keyhat2
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 17 Avr 2017
Messages: 4

MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 19, 2017 9:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Gentlemen,

I would appreciate a little more insight into this situation.
After looking at the diagram posted by Ramses2, I don't see how the Cat. can legally conform to attack 11 as it must enter (slide partially into) the ZoC of unit 22 to do so.

This appears specifically forbidden by the rule given on Page 53,upper right hand column, Conforming and ZoC.
To wit, "During a conform move a unit must consider an enemy ZoC that may prevent attacks on the flank or rear because the unit cannot conform correctly due to not being allowed to enter a ZoC".
The accompanying diagram, also on page 53, illustrates this case nicely.
It appears the main purpose for this important rule is to allow a player to protect a flank by having a unit positioned to deny an attack on the end of a line by using it's ZoC.
As mentioned before, I don't see how the Cat. can get a legal conformation for a flank attack without violating this rule.

Further to this discussion, the example given on page 7 of the FAQ, showing the target units being spread out, does not seem particularly relevant to this case. There all of the targets are facing the same way and none of them is exerting a ZoC on any of the attackers. The point of that example is to simply show how a group may attack the flank of another group in column.[/i]
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fdunadan
Légat


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 689
Localisation: Romans sur Isère

MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 20, 2017 9:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

The flank can not be contacted, you had to enter in the ZoC of the second unit: so no flank contact, you fight the second unit.
the rule "contact the flank of units of less of 1 UD depth" is meant if all the unit contacted are forming a column and are all contacted by the flank.
If one is turned, the ZoC protect the flank (logical)
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Ramses II
Signifer


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 349
Localisation: London

MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 21, 2017 1:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hi fdunadan and keyhat2, I am very unsure about that response.

While I agree that the section you quote prohibits entering an enemy ZoC, in this particular situation it only occurs where the target is 3cm deep. That size base is a 'game mechanic' to represent less deep formations, and is not intended to affect the game in any other way. Consequently this gave rise to the FAQ quoted which covers the specific case where the flanked units are only 3cm deep, causing the target units to be displaced (per p53 right hand column).

If unit "1" were square, ie 4cm x 4cm, then it could be contacted in the flank without 'entering' ZoC of unit "2", though it would end up in corner to corner contact with "2".
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keyhat2
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 17 Avr 2017
Messages: 4

MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 21, 2017 4:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Ramses II,

While I appreciate your response and understand your viewpoint, the fact remains that such an interpretation would seem to directly conflict with the rules given on the top of page 34, left hand column, "Movement within a ZoC".
This section begins " When a unit is in or enters one or more enemy ZoC, including in conforming, see page 52), the only movements permitted are: etc.,etc..
To allow the Cat. to charge unit 11 as a flank attack, the Cat. had to either enter unit 22's ZoC initially or conform into it, a condition envisioned by the introductory statement on page 34 quoted above, and prohibited by the following text.

It would seem that to apply the logic that base depth is ignored when making a flank attack is to say that the prohibition illustrated so well by the diagram on page 53 would be legal if the target unit in that example had a base depth of 40mm. Is that what you mean to say?

I also note that there is no mention of any of this base depth jockeying given at all in the rules section entitled, "Exceptions to ZoC", page 35. I also honestly can't see a clear connection to the example given in the FAQ, page 7, other than the statement that it wouldn't be necessary to displace units to allow a multi-unit column to be flanked by a multi-unit line if the base were all square. There is no ZoC issue in this example at all.

I sincerely appreciate your effort in explaining your viewpoint to us. This type of rules support from other players is a big reason why LADG has grown increasingly popular here in the States. You may well have successfully gleaned the author's intent.
This is such a fundamental point (allowing conforming into a ZoC when attacking a flank because base depths don't match base widths), that it should be directly addressed by whomever is officially in charge of such rulings, and not deciphered from an indirect example in the FAQ.

[/b]
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 2948
Localisation: paris

MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 21, 2017 10:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

All problems of contact and conformation are allready be solved in french forum.
Without view, is uneasy to understand the situation.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 21, 2017 10:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I see! If roman11 is MI ,catafract can contact. If roman 11 is HI , he can't because 22 is coverig the flank of 11 with his zone of control.
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keyhat2
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 17 Avr 2017
Messages: 4

MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 21, 2017 2:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I looked at the French Forum discussion and saw a discussion on a possible definition of "alignment" as perhaps intended by the author.
In the plain sense to align means, " to line up with" or "to put in a row or column". The point of reference here is " the most threatening unit". Thus when entering a ZoC, it appears that one can either move to facilitate lining up with the greatest threat, move closer, or charge the threatening unit(not it's neighbor).
Note particularily the explicit statement that " No point on it's (the aligning unit's) front edge must move further from the enemy than at the beginning of the move" ( page 34), Couple this with the caption (page 54) to the diagram about ZoCs and conforming, which reads, " A slide inside an enemy ZoC is not allowed", it appears obvious that the rules, as written, seem to disallow entering a ZoC, even partially, and then sliding over to conform to someone else.
Should the author choose to make an exception to his rules, covering the case of base depth, ZoCs and conforming, that is certainly fine, but I would like to see this spelled out clearly in the next FAQ.
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plefebvre
Légat


Inscrit le: 30 Déc 2009
Messages: 686

MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 27, 2017 12:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Back to the initial question.

At first , "C" unit can charge "1" unit only if this one is 40mm depth based. In the case where " C" unit is 30mm based, the ZOC of the "2" unit prevents "C" from charging "1". For to conform on the "1"'s flank, "C" should slide within "2"'s ZOC , wich is forbidden.

Supposing that "1" unit is 40 mm based, "2" would not provide support to it because it doesn't fulfill any of the three conditions required in page 50.

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keyhat2
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 17 Avr 2017
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 27, 2017 1:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Patrick,

Thanks for your answer.
Assuming 11 survives the flank attack and then turns to face it's attacker after the first round of combat, then 22 is displaced 10mm but can then serve as a support to 11, correct?
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