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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Ven Juil 23, 2021 7:27 am Sujet du message: Conforming (?) Mess |
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EBL
_M
Player 1 has elephant E and Bowmen B facing toward the top of the screen (the bowmen are shooting at someone there).
Player 2 manages to hit Bowmen B in the flank and rear with Medium cavalry M and Light Cavalry L.
Predictably, after combat, Bowmen B is gone and player 2 declines to pursue.
E_L
_M
Elephant E's rear corner is in contact with the front corner of Medium cavalry M, but is not currently in a ZOC.
What are player 1's option's on his next movement phase.
1. Can he conform the elephant into M for free (and its side into L's front), or does L's ZOC prevent this?
2. Can he spend 2 CP to turn around and charge M (same thing), once again possibly conforming his elephant's flank to the front of the Light cavalry? _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Ven Juil 23, 2021 3:18 pm Sujet du message: |
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The Elephant can
1) Make a move that takes it out of contact with the Medium Cavalry.
2) Conform to the MC. The MC would then have to option to evade.
3) Charge the LC by wheeling 90 degrees and making corner to corner with the LC.
It cannot charge the MC as units cannot charge enemy they are already in contact with.
Nor can it remain in its present position.
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Ven Juil 23, 2021 4:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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1) OK, that's clear
2) OK, but now the elephant has its flank contacted by the LC. And if the MC evade, then what? Do they get to conform again, or did they just functionally engage the front of another unit with their flank on their own turn.
3) OK, they charge the LC. The LC evade. Do they then conform to the MC anyway? _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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MC_Delicatessen
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020 Messages: 87
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Posté le: Ven Juil 23, 2021 9:42 pm Sujet du message: |
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What are the factors?
If the El conforms to the front edge of the MC and it doesn't evade, the El is contacted in the flank by the LC (right?).
So, the LC gets melee support +1. Both cav are at zero basic against the El. The El is reduced to zero because of the flank contact but gets the El panic - so evens.
And if the El wheels and charges the LC, if the LC doesn't evade, same equation, right? LC and MC are zero, El is zero, MC gets +1 melee support, cancelled by the LC elephant panic.
Is that right? |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Sam Juil 24, 2021 5:46 am Sujet du message: |
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First of all, I have to say I've never seen this situation in any game I've played, but the new rule that these post melee contacts must be resolved is throwing up odd situations that do need looking at.
Jhykronos a écrit: | 2) OK, but now the elephant has its flank contacted by the LC. And if the MC evade, then what? Do they get to conform again, or did they just functionally engage the front of another unit with their flank on their own turn.
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This is the head scratcher. Taking it in sequence, the Ele conforms then the MC evade. There's no provision in the rules for a second conform* so if the LC don't evade they would fight as if in a continuing melee - no javelin or impact factors. The question is can the LC evade. I think yes, on the basis that their situation is similar to that of the MC - they are being engaged in melee in by an enemy they could evade from if charged.
[* and if you think about it, if a second conform was allowed, then why not a third, fourth, etc?]
Jhykronos a écrit: | 3) OK, they charge the LC. The LC evade. Do they then conform to the MC anyway? |
As I see it, the only way they can charge the LC is by breaking contact with the MC through wheeling 90 degrees. They can't turn 90 degrees and charge because they would be sliding along the front of the MC and that's not permitted (p41 Sliding Along The Enemy). _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence
Dernière édition par daveallen le Sam Juil 24, 2021 6:00 am; édité 1 fois |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Sam Juil 24, 2021 5:54 am Sujet du message: |
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MC_Delicatessen a écrit: | What are the factors?
If the El conforms to the front edge of the MC and it doesn't evade, the El is contacted in the flank by the LC (right?).
So, the LC gets melee support +1. Both cav are at zero basic against the El. The El is reduced to zero because of the flank contact but gets the El panic - so evens.
And if the El wheels and charges the LC, if the LC doesn't evade, same equation, right? LC and MC are zero, El is zero, MC gets +1 melee support, cancelled by the LC elephant panic.
Is that right? |
Against the MC the Ele would get 2 (Light units on the flank don't reduce the combat factor to 0) and the MC gets 1 + 1 (Melee Support) - 1 (Panic) = 1
Against the LC the Ele is 0 and the LC is 0 + 2 (Melee Support) -1 (Panic) = 1 and possibly another +1 for javelins. _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015 Messages: 95
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Posté le: Sam Juil 24, 2021 6:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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daveallen a écrit: | First of all, I have to say I've never seen this situation in any game I've played, but the new rule that these post melee contacts must be resolved is throwing up odd situations that do need looking at. |
Yeah, well I -just- had this situation in the last game I played, which is why I asked. _________________ - Let the Die be Cast |
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MC_Delicatessen
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020 Messages: 87
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Posté le: Dim Juil 25, 2021 7:14 am Sujet du message: |
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daveallen a écrit: | MC_Delicatessen a écrit: | What are the factors?
If the El conforms to the front edge of the MC and it doesn't evade, the El is contacted in the flank by the LC (right?).
So, the LC gets melee support +1. Both cav are at zero basic against the El. The El is reduced to zero because of the flank contact but gets the El panic - so evens.
And if the El wheels and charges the LC, if the LC doesn't evade, same equation, right? LC and MC are zero, El is zero, MC gets +1 melee support, cancelled by the LC elephant panic.
Is that right? |
Against the MC the Ele would get 2 (Light units on the flank don't reduce the combat factor to 0) and the MC gets 1 + 1 (Melee Support) - 1 (Panic) = 1
Against the LC the Ele is 0 and the LC is 0 + 2 (Melee Support) -1 (Panic) = 1 and possibly another +1 for javelins. |
Thanks. Got it. MC are +1 basic vs mounted, which includes el |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Dim Juil 25, 2021 12:40 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi both. An interesting situation indeed.
However, I think the Elephant only has the options to move out of contact with the MC, or to conform with the front edge of the MC; attempting to charge the LC would move through the ZoC of the MC which must be respected under V4. That said, I agree with Dave's conclusions that the factors would favour the elephant, and also that both enemy units could evade. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Dim Juil 25, 2021 3:02 pm Sujet du message: |
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Jhykronos a écrit: | Yeah, well I -just- had this situation in the last game I played, which is why I asked. |
I meant to say we'll see more of this now the rules have changed.
That said, you do seem to be getting into some seriously messy melees
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mar Juin 21, 2022 6:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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I've been going through all the questions and this one brings up something I've been pondering.
(Z is the ZoC)
If the El 1⁄4 turn to face the LH, they are still not in the ZoC of either the LH or MCav, so neither is the most threatening enemy [tmte].
As soon as they (infinitesimally) advance then"
the LH is directly in front of the El.
the MCav is closest.
the MCav is (infinitesmally) on the flank of the El.
I'm not sure if this makes the MCav tmte because is it "in front" of the El and closest,
or it makes the LH tmte because is it directly in front and the MCav is on the flank? |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Mar Juin 21, 2022 10:47 pm Sujet du message: |
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As soon as the elephant turns it's in contact with the mc so doesn't it conform with the MC?
In the original option 2, doesn't the MC evade before any actual conforming is done and so the conformation stops there with an elephant about turn.?
Cannot confirm to someone who isn't there. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 291
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Posté le: Mer Juin 22, 2022 1:07 am Sujet du message: |
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"attempting to charge the LC would move through the ZoC of the MC"
I dont see that. A turn would result in that, but the El could instead wheel 90 degrees to the right and then charge. They will not be in the MC ZOC and will make corner to corner contact with the LH and then conform. |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 445
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Mer Juin 22, 2022 1:12 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | As soon as the elephant turns it's in contact with the mc so doesn't it conform with the MC?
In the original option 2, doesn't the MC evade before any actual conforming is done and so the conformation stops there with an elephant about turn.?
Cannot confirm to someone who isn't there. |
Presumably the sequence is something like:
El: I’m going to turn and conform to you; are you standing or evading?
MC: I’m evading (rolls VMD and moves).
El: Mmm now what do I do?
1. Turn and haltÂ
2. Move to the conform position had the MC not evaded
If the Elephant enters the LC ZoC presumably  the sequence is repeated? |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mer Juin 22, 2022 4:00 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick, good point. But I think the sliding rules on page 41 and the fact that you cannot charge a unit you start in contact with, will allow you to slide right down the face of the MCav so long as the LH is, in fact, TMtE.
SteveR - absolutely you could strike the enemy that way. I am interested in the litigation of the TMTE rules, though.
Zoltan - I think this was all discussed in another early thread (I'm reading them through). You conform first, and the evasion happens, page 51. If they do evade there is no second conformation. You would fight a flank attack from the LH, which in this case would mean you keep your combat factor and your Panix; LH would get the Situation +1. So the LH may well want to evade anyway, which is another open question. Although I note when charged, any unit "contacted" may evade. |
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