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Southern League Round 2 - Central London, 8th May
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 14, 2022 11:07 am    Sujet du message: Southern League Round 2 - Central London, 8th May Répondre en citant
Tickets: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/adlg-southern-league-round-2-central-london-registration-244537106067?aff=Forum

“The Wars of Medieval France" L'Art de la Guerre Tournament at the Central London Wargames Club @ The Escape, Mornington Crescent,

Round 2 of the Southern League competition
Date – Sunday May 8th 2022
The event is currently limited to 30 players, subject to any new CV19 restrictions appearing of course
Standard ADLGv4 rules, 15mm, 200 points, 3 games,

Theme: The Wars of France in the Middle Ages .
Any of the following armies can be used:
-231 Swiss
-232 Medieval Scots ("In France" option only)
-235 Condotta
-236 100YW English ("In England" options not allowed)
-237 100YW French
-238 Medieval German (no Hungarians)
-239 Medieval Spanish
-240 Navarrese
-241 Free Company ("In Germany" options not allowed)
-242 Burgundian
-243 Low Countries
-244 Welsh (only in 1405, a French ally must be used)
-245 French Ordonnance
-246 Burgundian Ordonnance
The tournament starts 900-ish. Each round will be 2 and 1/2 hours plus a bit, and we will break for buffet lunch when it's ready (so there will be a " put down your dice and step away from the measuring sticks " moment probably half way through the second game). We expect to finish at around 6ish. The ideal timings will be
9:00 - 11:30 Round 1
12:00 - 15:00 (allowing a 30 min lunch pause) Round 2.
When the food arrives, which will be mid-way through the second game, the umpires will call "Down Dice" and everyone will halt their games exactly where they are for about half an hour so we can all have lunch.
15:30-18:00 Round 3
18:00ish Prizes and packing away
If we find that all games in any round are concluded within the time limit we will try and crack on and start the subsequent rounds a bit earlier so we can all get away sooner.
The club does have some terrain, but not enough for all of us, so either bring your own or take pot luck on whats left! If you have a playing mat of the correct dimensions that you can bring along it would really help too.
• Venue – The Escape Sports Bar, 2 Lidlington Place, Regents Park, London NW1 2JU (2 minutes walk from Mornington Crescent tube). If you want to drive, parking is controlled on Sundays in the streets immediately around the pub, but if free a couple of blocks away - otherwise there are car parks nearby as well. Camden Parking can be seen here
• Entry fee will be £10 on the day which wil cover a BUFFET LUNCH (vegggie options available) and some prizes.
• The most current set of FAQ and clarifications will be in force.
• Lists to Tim Porter, lists @madaxeman.com by 30th April latest. Late lists will be displayed on the wall throughout the day for all to see.
• Food and drinks can be bought on site at the Escape - please do not bring food and drinks unless by prior arangement (and if you really don't like curry let us know).
For queries contact tim@madaxeman.com
We're looking forward seeing you at the table! See less
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 02, 2022 8:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Runners and Riders:

Hubert BRETAGNE Hundred Years War French
Jesse Schoor Condottieri
Gavin McKenzie Free Company
Peter Webb Burgundian Ordonnance
David Saunders Kingdom of Navarre
Harrison Pearce French Ordonnance
William Matthews Hundred Years War English
Tim Porter Swiss
Darrell Pearce Burgundian Ordonnance
Gordon Jamieson Medieval Spanish
David Allen Medieval Scots
Richard Case Condottieri
Andy Finkel Hundred Years War English
Sean Walker Condottieri
Stanley Sola Medieval German
Simon Finney Free Company
Howard Gray Hundred Years War English
Simon Ellis Low Countries
Michael Rowland French Ordonnance
David Roberts Condottieri
Simon Brown Hundred Years War English
Paul Frith Swiss
Mark Littleton-Gray French Ordonnance
Dave Madigan Medieval Spanish
Steve Watling Free Company
Stephen Nice Condottieri
Richard Hammond Burgundian Ordonnance
Ian Sewell Burgundian Ordonnance
Richard Stone Medieval Spanish
Colin Whittaker Low Countries
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 08, 2022 6:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Final Standings after all 3 rounds:



(highlighted players scores include 58 points for a "mutual destruction" bye)
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 6:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Does raise the observation that a bye result is a handicap to be a completion winner.

Principles of war completions around the turn of of the century adopted the "average of winning scores " policy instead of a draw.

12, 11 and 14. Results to be collected here.
To made the maths easier with smaller numbers it's 90 +/_ ?

Significant round is usually first as random player pick , then bottom players get next bye, which jumps them off the bottom.
Giving an easier ride for working the next draw at the lower end of the scores ladder.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 6:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dave, i've a copyright on med scots.... Very Happy
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 8:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Does raise the observation that a bye result is a handicap to be a completion winner.

Principles of war completions around the turn of of the century adopted the "average of winning scores " policy instead of a draw.

12, 11 and 14. Results to be collected here.
To made the maths easier with smaller numbers it's 90 +/_ ?

Significant round is usually first as random player pick , then bottom players get next bye, which jumps them off the bottom.
Giving an easier ride for working the next draw at the lower end of the scores ladder.


Honestly... I don't think anyone is that fussed if they win, podium or come bottom any more really, as long as we enjoy the games and play some different people to usual I always regard it as a win. I was running the event so was happy to sit out the first round - the other two bye players got their entry fee refunded in full and still played 2 games and got a curry and a day in the pub. Win-win really !

Any system for scoring byes based on other results will create problems in 3-game event as well - carrying forward the average of just 2 games scores makes it a total lottery, and would have been even more unfair.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 10:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You basically have too many people for a three round event and needed two pools, which Is hard for this kind of theme.
3 people on 3 wins each, mean the top 3 did not face each other so the difference was on how much they ran up the win.

So you are stuck with 3 rounds this many people of everyone having a good time.
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 5:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I can think of worse problems to have Smile

Jesse
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Peter Webb
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 11:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for running this Tim.

Fun one day competition it was especially good to get people from other clubs ie Reading over.

3 games of Adlg a curry and a laugh, what’s not to like!
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 11:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Glad it's agreed mutual destruction is unfair for a bye.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 11, 2022 11:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Glad it's agreed mutual destruction is unfair for a bye.


I've actually got no problem with it - especially in a 3-round event. Apart from the first round, anyone receiving a bye has by definition been at the bottom of the table after one of the rounds so really they shouldn't then be going on to place at the event. A bye score of 58 will bump the recipient up to (at best, and only after round 1) mid table, purely so the draw can be carried out in the next round. In this particular event anyone with a bye also got their entry fee refunded in full too.

I'd actually regard it as far more unfair for someone benefitting from a bye calculated (say) on "other scores" to then place on the podium after only playing 2 games out of three - especially if they started the second round playing someone in mid-table or below (as I did in this event).

Maybe once you get up to whatever that magic formula is about enough "rounds x players" to get a "proper" result there's an argument for other ways of calculating it, but you always have to be mindful of the potential unfairness of giving someone a more favourable draw along the way as well.

Its a bit like CHurchills quote on Democracy really... it may not be ideal, but its better than the other options...
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 11, 2022 12:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It's the first round bye is the killer just awarding a mutual destruction.

You've seem gladiator. It's the emperors sward in the side.

Look at the data and see what an average winning score would have done to your final score after three rounds.
An average is still a handicap behind the top scores.
Bet the difference is 25+?
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 11, 2022 3:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
It's the first round bye is the killer just awarding a mutual destruction.

You've seem gladiator. It's the emperors sward in the side.

Look at the data and see what an average winning score would have done to your final score after three rounds.
An average is still a handicap behind the top scores.
Bet the difference is 25+?


Absolutely - my average from the other two rounds was 89 (91 + 87).

As I said, winning/losing/placing wasn't at all important, I just wanted to get some Swiss on table at the weekend for the first time. More importantly I did choose/put myself forward to take the first round bye - which in reality is often the case when there are odd numbers.

But, had I been fussed about placing, and also gone with an "average of other two scores" bye result then I would also have been "benefitting" from a mid-table draw in Round 2, and then a "2/3 of the way up the table" draw in Round 3 as well.. so swings and roundabouts really.

To have ended up on the podium after putting myself forward to take a first round bye, then going into the draw mid-table (rather than at the top) in round 2, and finally taking an average of my other two scores to give me an 89 in the "bye" round at the end would then have left me a smidge ahead of the 2nd and 3rd place players.

I'd not be happy with taking a prize on that basis - in fact, I suspect we'd all have felt that was pretty close to cheating, myself included!
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 11, 2022 5:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Average of two later scores is nothing to do with my train of experience.
It's one of your thoughts.

Average of winning scores in the current round is what is wanted. An average of 12 results from the first round.
A useful figure to help work out the next round pairings.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 11, 2022 5:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Average of two later scores is nothing to do with my train of experience.
It's one of your thoughts.

Average of winning scores in the current round is what is wanted. An average of 12 results from the first round.
A useful figure to help work out the next round pairings.


The average of the 12 winning scores from Round 1 would have been a pretty chunky 88 - the entire spread was 83-93 - so it would have generated the same result as taking the average of my other two rounds anyway.

Of course, if one of the "weaker" players were to have taken the R1 bye and been dropped into the middle of the first-round winners pool, then it could be argued that their opponent in R2 would have gained a significant advantage over the other R1 "winners".

There's no easily identifiable "right" solution ... only different types of non-ideal ones.
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