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ADLG Theme Boundaries
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vexillia
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 231
Localisation: Warrington, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 04, 2021 8:21 am    Sujet du message: ADLG Theme Boundaries Répondre en citant
When I wrote my Art de la Guerre (ADLG) list search tools I contacted various people to ask their advice. I received lots of helpful comments and some requests for specific search methods.



However, one person asked why I was doing this as the armies in ADLG v4 are already split into rigorous periods. As ADLG Hervé explained:

"All lists in the Feudal period now include only medium knights. Heavy knights are only present in the Medieval period. The Dark Ages period has no knights. Changes in ADLG v4, May 2021"

I have since uncovered a slight problem with this. Not with the lists themselves but the way they are used as broad themes in competitions.

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2021/10/adlg-theme-boundaries.html
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 314
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 04, 2021 11:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The "color periods" consistently do damage to non-European armies. In almost every case there are numerous, historically significant, armies that start in one color and run through multiple other color periods.

The Green period is egregious in that regard looking at 166 and beyond

Christian Nubian 550-1517AD
Beja 831-1500AD
Burmese 500-1526AD
Rebel Vietnamese 544-958AD
Hindu Indian 550=1510AD
etc.

Some of these if restricted to their "color period" would never see play at their most interesting dates. Burmese don't get their real elephant force until 1043AD!

Simply restricting these to the Green period is IMO simply ridiculous. It does not even get it "about right."

Use _DATES_ to determine your periods. Pay attention to the knight break periods in particular but don't just go "Oh the blue period." This is one of the few things I think Herve has done actual damage with even suggesting these are ready made themes.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 04, 2021 4:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The rules and lists have only been published for around 6 months, and competitions have only been possible to stag i n most of the world for maybe 3 months at the outside.

For the events happening now (where themes would have been picked 3-4 months ago maybe) I suspect organisers are just going for the simplest themes they can cook up in order to ease as many people as possible back into the whole idea of meeting strangers face to face again.

There's plenty of time for more subtle and thought out themes to be announced in the next few years, once stuff like this has been widely spotted and acknowledged.
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 68
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 05, 2021 5:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with Ethan, using colors rather than dates for themes leads to very undesirable outcomes. However, I do like the idea of including New World armies in bronze aged themes.

It would have been nice if the table of contents or index included the date ranges for themes/categories and for the specific armies. Maybe v5? (Overall however, I find the indexing in the rules and army lists to be quite good, better than most rules in my experience.)
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vexillia
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Warrington, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 05, 2021 6:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
It would have been nice if the table of contents or index included the date ranges for themes/categories and for the specific armies.

In the meantime wouldn't it be nice to have something, freely available, that allowed you to search lists by date (& region) ? Anyone know of one?
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 05, 2021 9:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
It would have been nice if the table of contents or index included the date ranges for themes/categories and for the specific armies.

In the meantime wouldn't it be nice to have something, freely available, that allowed you to search lists by date (& region) ? Anyone know of one?


I’ve heard rumors of such a thing…

One feature/extension that might be handy would be to start compiling a list of which armies fought which other armies. (Either known field battles or more practically fought or fought wars, or even are very likely to have fought in the case of poorly documented armies and eras/regions. That might be a handy tool to allow organizers of large tournaments in early round matchups - assuming they and the players would prefer to fight historical matchups when practical.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1137
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 05, 2021 11:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
It would have been nice if the table of contents or index included the date ranges for themes/categories and for the specific armies.

In the meantime wouldn't it be nice to have something, freely available, that allowed you to search lists by date (& region) ? Anyone know of one?


I built a simple one for v3.
The issue is do you do the period ranges within a list?
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vexillia
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 231
Localisation: Warrington, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 06, 2021 7:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
The issue is do you do the period ranges within a list?

Citation:
Search Tool: with this players can create lists of armies with certain terrain in a given period and find out which army features most often as an ally. Tournament organisers can generate lists by date, period and sub-period as well as fine tune lists for themes.

Make a copy and have a play.

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/p/art-de-la-guerre-v4-adlg-tools.html
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kevinj
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Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
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Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 9:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As Tm mentioned, given the fact that we have a new set of rules and have not been able to hold tournaments for over a year there has been a tendency to apply a simple process to period theming and the divisions in the rules have worked well enough until now. I've used the same principle for the rounds of the Northern League that I've organised. However, I agree that these divisions do not serve a number of armies well and plan next year to return to setting the theme periods by date. To that end I've come up with a set of periods that I think are reasonable and will look to use for next year's Northern League but I'd be grateful for any thoughts and especially if anyone sees any glaring anomalies that I've missed.

Periods:

Ancient: 3000 BCE - 501 BCE. By a strange conicidence this period finishes just before the start of the Classical Indians...

Classical: 500 BCE - 106 BCE*. This ends just before the Triumvirate Roman army starts.

Roman: 104 BCE - 492 CE*. From Triumvirate Roman to the end of Patrician Roman.

Dark Ages: 494 CE - 1049 CE. This finishes just before the availability of Medium Knights.

Feudal: 1050 CE - 1329 CE. From the introduction of Medium Knights until just before the availability of Heavy Knights.

Medieval: 1330 CE - 1500+ CE. The Heavy Knight period. This could stretch by a few years beyond 1500 if you want to include some of the very late options.

* The gap in these periods is to ensure that the armies that effectively start the later periods (Triumvirate Roman and Justinian Byzantine) don't sneak into the earlier periods. If this gap excludes any options please let me know.
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vexillia
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Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 11:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It would allow the Ilkhanids to play in the Feudal theme. Yay!
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: London, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 2:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
kevinj a écrit:
. Ancient: 3000 BCE - 501 BCE. By a strange conicidence this period finishes just before the start of the Classical Indians...
.


Seems logical suggestions. One small thought is that I wonder about finishing the early period a little earlier to make it much more a chariot period. Maybe stop before the classical Greeks?
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AlanCutner
Légat


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 2:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't think we need to be prescriptive at all in periods/themes. In most cases, for each competition, its enough to pick a start date, end date and a geographic region. The dates can be arbitrary or historic landmarks. No need to go by themes in the rule book.
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KevinD
Archer


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
kevinj a écrit:
. Ancient: 3000 BCE - 501 BCE. By a strange conicidence this period finishes just before the start of the Classical Indians...
.


Seems logical suggestions. One small thought is that I wonder about finishing the early period a little earlier to make it much more a chariot period. Maybe stop before the classical Greeks?


Your idea makes sense, but to play devil’s advocate I think including the Hellenic but not Hellenistic Greeks in an early period is fine. Prior to some point in the 5th c BC Greeks are a pretty one dimensional heavy infantry army with a few second or third rate mounted and lighter troops. They are radically less effective (or at least much different than) than the combined arms Hellenistic armies of the 4th c BC and later. So they seem fine in a Bronze Age and Early Iron Age theme. (The other logical break point is somewhere between 1200 BC and 1000 BC, marking the end of the Late Bronze Age and Maryannu style two horse chariot elite and the arrival of the Iron Age with its heavy infantry masses and heavier shock chariots. Of course there might not be enough people with Bronze Age armies for that to be a viable theme. Or just go for 750 BC as the dividing point - there are as many years from 3000-750 BC as from 750 BC to 1500 AD. (Actually one more since there is no year 0.)
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1137
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 5:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think each organizer can set their theme as they wish. There are arguments for many approaches.

Generally what organizers need to watch for are things like:
did they let in one unique predator
Is there a goof that allows a particular and hard to find "killer army"
Is the objective one thing say knights, but players will counter program with say elephants and ruin the concept.
Are you trying to be balanced without full regard to history, or is history key
Did you pick a theme to narrow and esoteric.
Did you pick a time period that has an additional skew like all heavy knight period (but then longbows) an are you prepared for the players counter programing.
Did you unnecessarily exlude armies that would have been fine (asia armies often get excluded)
Do people other than you really want to play that? (armies and enemies of Mapuche does not interest me for example)
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KevinD
Archer


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 07, 2021 7:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
I think each organizer can set their theme as they wish. There are arguments for many approaches.

Generally what organizers need to watch for are things like:
did they let in one unique predator
Is there a goof that allows a particular and hard to find "killer army"
Is the objective one thing say knights, but players will counter program with say elephants and ruin the concept.
Are you trying to be balanced without full regard to history, or is history key
Did you pick a theme to narrow and esoteric.
Did you pick a time period that has an additional skew like all heavy knight period (but then longbows) an are you prepared for the players counter programing.
Did you unnecessarily exlude armies that would have been fine (asia armies often get excluded)
Do people other than you really want to play that? (armies and enemies of Mapuche does not interest me for example)


Another issue is how to handle New World armies - do they go strictly by date (in which case they just get killed by knights) or by technological development (i.e., they go in the early period).2
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