Art De La Guerre

[Black Prince]

Does anyone have any experience with the Early Samurai army?

I was thinking going with a junk command with the followers 4 with Yari and 4 with bow. Then the main command 4x Samurai heavy foot and 4x Med Samurai with bow. Obviously placing the bow in between the HF Samurai. The third command some mounted Samurai with a couple of bases of med Samurai bow.

[kevinj]

I've had some success with this army. My list is:

Brilliant C-in-C
3 HC Bow Elite, 1 LC Bow, 2 HI 2HW Elite, 2 Med Sw/Bow Elite, 2 Ashigaru

Ordinary Included sub
3 HI 2HW Elite, Med Sw 2HW Elite2 Med Sw/Bow Elite, 2 Ashigaru

Ordinary Included sub
1 HC Bow Elite, 1 LC Bow, 1 Stampeding Cattle

I've found that whilst the Sw/Bow units can be very effective it's best to use them in a more supporting role than as the main arm. Depending on the opponent they can be interspersed with the HI or operate on the flanks.

[Hazelbark]

Generally I find it is never a good idea to have a "junk" command. Small. yes. Dedicated purpose yes. But no value in having a junk corps.

[ethan]

No junk command, the posted list is solid looking.

[Dickstick]

One man's junk is another man's jewel.

Didn't see the point of it until got attacked by it and I don't get to see more than 15% of his army until after 75% of mine was on the table.

Didn't make me want to follow the example though.

Economy of effort if you want to project an ambush/flank march threat.

Much prefer commanders pips all being used on three smaller commands but if your army is small anyway can be of little difference.
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[Black Prince]

Guys thanks for the input.
Kevin your list has a lot of Elite troops does it need that many to be a viable army?

[kevinj]

It works for me. The infantry has no armour or light foot to protect it from shooting so being elite helps you get into contact with less damage. With shooters you get even more benefit as it helps the shooting as well.

I think the comments regarding a junk command relate to the original post rather than my mini command. I've found it very useful for holding off a larger enemy corps and allowing the rest of the army to focus on outnumbering what's left. Having the expendable can make people put more effort into avoiding or destroying it, and sometimes it can cause a decent amount of damage.

[ethan]

[ethan]

[Black Prince]

So it is better to spread the junk troops out across multiple commands rather just it lumping them together?
My full junk command idea is
General included in Samurai MF Bow swordsmen Elite
4 followers mediocre MF Spear (Compulsory)
4 followers mediocre LMI Bow
My thought process was if the junk came up against a micro command it should be able to deal with it. If it came up against a more determined troops; to occupy terrain distract the enemy only fighting at the minute. If the terrain was no kind and they ended up in the open against mounted troops then it does not end well for the junk. Leaving the other two commands to do the business.

[fdunadan]

You have 9 unit so since line is 6 max to move, you will need 2 CP per move. And the Lancers can't interpenetrate the Bows.

That amount to 49 pts... that's 1/4 of the budget... It ain't a small portion...

Your troops can't evade. MF or LMI mediocre in open are basically dead against anything short LI or Levies ( or other MI mediocre) So your only hope is to bunker in rough terrain (depend of dice for placement) and hoping that your opponent doesn't have troops capable of fihting in rough terrain... Elephant, MI impact or impetuous will crush you even in terrain...

In my opinion, your corps will attract the attack, and can't stand it. Your others command of HI and MI Bow may not be able to move faster enough to support the junk corp.

For Samuraîs, I prefer having the Ashigarus in support in each command: protecting flanks to give one or two turn of delay to the opponent, providing support to fire or combat, flanking the ennemy after the lines meet, protecting the camp against LH, occupiying a rough terrain in coordination with HI in open ground,...

Having only a small command makes sense if you have strong generals and few units in the others commands. Then you can group 2 of your commands on one area and use the feeble third to hold against the rest of the ennemy units. there your army seems to be 21 units and when you lose the junk corps, that's 19 points( general included)...
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Audentes fortuna iuvat.

[kevinj]

I agree with Fundadan, that junk command would be a huge target. I use my Ashigaru the same way. They start the game behnd the decent troops and are only used if necessary. This means that from the opponent's perspective, other than a couple of light horse, there are only Elite shooters or combat troops to fight.

[ethan]

Yep. The Ashigaru start behind the "real" troops. They have two main roles. The act as support providing a +1 to the main line troops. Second, they sacrifice themselves to protect your flanks or fill a hole in your line. Note filling a hole in the line is just as much about making your good troops keep working as that can prevent the enemy from getting support.

[Soranon]

Hello

(sorry for my poor english)

3 lists I'm used to play in tournament :

ALL MI LIST :

General competent included
4 HC bow elite
1 LC bow

Général Brillant
6 MI sw/bow elite
2 Medium lancers mediocre
1 LC bow

General competent non reliant
1 MI Sw/bow elite
2 MI Sw/bow ordinary
2 MI spear mediocre
1 LC bow

This list is an extreme list. I choosed to play without any HI because I don't believe that taking 4 to 6 HI 2HW will be of any value against occidental feodal army lists. I prefer to play this list and used a lot of terrain to prevent beeing crushed by mass of Kn in open. This list seem to be a defensive one but it's wrong : You must be very aggressive with this amry list if you dont want your opponent to play the draw. MI elite can run away from Kn, even if it's mean no shooting before reaching a terrain.

The Brillant general corps is the main action corps. It's used to attack and seizing terrain.
The competent general non reliant is the defensive action corps. I used it to occupied a terrain next to the camp and protect it if possible
The cavalry is all elite and used to support the main corps.
Ideally, I play each infantery corps in two central terrains with a gap of 6 UD between them. The cavalry in this case is played in center and used to lure some troups in what a friend of mine named "the valley of death". If I can't have this type of table, I'm used to play the2 big corps concentrated on on third of the table (often deploying the cavalry in column for redeploying it quickly)

The MI spears mediocre work as second line or are used to prevent an attack against a MI sw/bow by Kn or elite Elephant (it's a sacrifice that worth it's cost usually)

The 3 LC (one in each corps) are thre for preventing double move for enemy corps. I found they are precious in this task. It'svery important for preventing Kn to catch my MI before they can seize a terrain.

This list fear Kn if they are more than 4, Elite Elephant and Impact HC. But, I had clearly more victories than defeat with this list in tournament (5 win, 3 draw, 2 loss). The big probleme is if I have a wonderfull terrain, my opponent don't want to play. That's why you must be aggressive with this list. My draw are 75% nearly win with this army.


FRONTON'S TOURNAMENT LIST :

This is a more equilibrated list but not really more powerfull. It could be used against asiatic oponent especially Chinese, Korean and Jurchen Chin

General competent included
4 HC bow elite
2 LC bow

General ordinary
2 MI Sw/bow elite
2 MI Sw/bow
2 MI Spears mediocre

General competent
4 HI 2HW elite
2 MI Sw/bow Elite
2 Medium lancers mediocre

The command is too low for me but the 3 corps are easy to manoeuver. The third one is a ligne of 6 elite infantery (4 HI and 2 MI) that can take nearly every opponent except a Ghaznevid elephant corps and mass of Kn. I play nearly the same tactics with this armylist than the first one.

what is really important, is to be defensor if I can. And I choose village in first. If I can't, I choose river (but not the two of them). I take the more terrain I can each time, even if it's means for me no terrain control.

With this list, I had 3 win, 1 nearly win draw and one defeat (against the winner who play Ghaznevids) I finish 3rd against féodal army lists.


I play this list in a asiatic thematic at Bordeaux in 2019 :


ASIATIC TOURNAMENT LIST :

Brillant general
4 HC bow elite
2MC bow
1 LC bow

Brillant general
5 MI Sw/bow elite
2 MI spears mediocre

Ordinary included and non reliant general
1 MI Sw/bow elite
2 MI Sw/bow
2 MI spear mediocre
1 LC bow

I had very strange tournament with this list and I finished 4th with 2 win (one against the winner witch played... samurais xd), 2 double Ko (that I should have win) and 1 draw.

The big cavalry corps is devised for winning against other cavalry corps or for beating samurai infantry corps. And it worked against Inaki !


Samurai list are very difficult to play. It isn't easy to have more than 20-21 units and getting more is not very useful usualy.[/u]

[Black Prince]

Once again thanks for sharing options and lists. It looks like the junk command just got junked.

I have a fairly agressive playing style which often gets me into trouble so maybe this list might suit me.

What figures are you using for Emishi I know Baueda make them but at the moment it is a bit to get hold of them?