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Confroming during a charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 28, 2019 12:31 am    Sujet du message: Confroming during a charge Répondre en citant
This came up today.

Consider two lines of troops

123
4567

123 are facing down and are within 1 UD of enemy troops 4567 which are facing up. The two groups are aligned as shown with 1 directly opposite 4

However unit 7 is slightly forward (up higher on the page) of unit 6 having advanced separately earlier.

123 declare a charge directly forward. In doing so, 1 will contact 4 and 2 will contact 5. So far so good.

However 3 will contact unit 7 corner to corner, as it is slightly advanced, before it contacts 6.

Which leads to a conundrum.

Page 34 of the rules says that a moving unit cannot leave the most threatening enemy's ZOC (which unit 6 is) and so therefore a conformation with 7 is prohibited.

However page 9 of the FAQ entitled "Charge while sliding along the flank of an enemy unit" specifically example 1, says that a unit which contacts an enemy corner to corner like this must conform and cannot continue a charge past the point of contact to hit another unit.

Which rule takes precedence?

For what it is worth we figured the most threatening enemy made the most sense to fight and so allowed the unit to go past the point of initial contact and fight 6.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 28, 2019 10:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Rubbish deleted. Rolling Eyes

Dernière édition par Zoltan le Dim Déc 29, 2019 6:30 am; édité 1 fois
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 28, 2019 1:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I read the FAQ as disallowing any move other than that allowed by the most threatening enemy. But conform is not a move. So I see no issue with unit 3 advancing to the corner of unit 7 and, as its a contact, conforming to it.
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 28, 2019 8:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Zoltan, I had specified that the lines were within 1 UD. This means that sliding before charging is not allowed.

The issue is that unit 3 will make corner to corner contact with 7 before it contacts 6. Normally corner to corner contact is sufficient to compel conformation and melee between those units.

I see your point Alan that conformation is not a move, you may be right. It does feel strange to fight something which is not the most threatening enemy however.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 29, 2019 6:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
Thank you Zoltan, I had specified that the lines were within 1 UD. This means that sliding before charging is not allowed.

My bad - of course you did! Sad
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 29, 2019 8:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No worries Zoltan, we all miss things at times.

For Alan, page 53 "conforming and ZOC" is interesting. It specifies, as we know, that when conforming for a flank or rear attack one must obey ZOC restrictions for entry.

This is not necessarily directly applicable - we are leaving a ZOC and not entering one. Well we are entering one but it is the one we will fight. But it is not the most threatening enemy.

and page 53 also says that "A slide inside an enemy ZOC is not allowed"

and it is true that a conformation may not always be a "slide", but in the circumstance the page indicates it clearly is.

and in ALDG one cannot rely on general statements like this to apply universally in other circumstances.

So basically I still see it as an ambiguity. And a not necessarily uncommon one either - the general case (setting aside the ZOC issues) is that a unit may charge a given enemy unit but it's path may require it to contact a different enemy first. If so I feel that that is the one you have charged and will conform to.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 30, 2019 2:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No real ambiguity here Steve, if we follow the process. 
To recap your diag

112233

 . . . . . DD
AABBCC

  1. The key thing here is that D is effectively the “most threatening enemy†because it is the nearest enemy to the front of unit 3, since 3 will contact it first. Therefore The group declare a charge on D
  2. Group 1-3 charge down the page, but the charge movement stops “if it encounters an enemy. . . “ (p36). 
    In this case the group stops when 3 makes corner contact with D.
  3. The other units in the group may (must if impetuous) continue their movement up to their maximum allowance. (P36).
    In this case, units 1&2 elect to stop within the ZoCs of A & B. 
    This ends the formal movement of the group. 
  4. The units in contact must conform, and those units that are part of a group may be included (pp52,53 as amended by official amendments). Here the entire group is shifted sideways causing 2 to come into a supporting position in contact with the corner of D. 
    This is not formal movement, but rather a games mechanic used to align opposing units for the purposes of melee calculations. 
  5. melee is then fought.


This situation is an extreme version of the case cited at the bottom of p6 in the latest FAQ, where conformation causes unit(s) to move sideways within an enemy ZoC. 
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 30, 2019 6:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you for responding Ramses - you grasp the situation perfectly and I appreciate you laying out the process step by step.

However I am unable to agree with your logic in the very first step. You say that D is "effectively the “most threatening enemy†because it is the nearest enemy to the front of unit 3, since 3 will contact it first."

However D is not in front of 3. And the definition of most threatening enemy from page 34, as amended, is the "nearest whose ZOC covers a part of the front edge" This unit is C in your diagram. Both 3 and C are in each others ZOC. D is not in the ZOC of 3 and so cannot be the most threatening enemy.

Thank you for bringing up the FAQ though. Looking at page 7 a slide in the in the ZOC of a most threatening enemy is allowed if that is the only way to contact that most threatening enemy. That would seem to indicate a slight slide so as to not contact D corner to corner would be allowed as that is the only way for 3 to contact C. Result is that 123 fight ABC following conformation.

I do like your final result however. What I would like to avoid philosophically is a player obtaining an advantage by having a unit slightly forward like that. In my game it happened organically but I would hate to see it be a tactic.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 30, 2019 12:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
LoL this is another example of the “edge case†paradox in these and other rules, or to misquote Shakespeare “to slide, or not to slide, that is the questionâ€.

In most cases, the attacker (1-3) can obviously choose to slide one way or the other to clarify the situation, thus totally avoiding contact with D or making D the obvious target. In this case, 1 & 2 may not slide as they are already ZoCed, which locks the formation in place. 

However, if we ignore all other units and just consider the situation between 3 and D, the key question is whether D and 3 are mutually ZoCed if they will make corner contact, or not. 


The answer is “Yes it is ZoCedâ€.

Consider the following diag.

3344
...DD
  • If there are two units, one of which is perfectly aligned with an enemy (4 & D), and they charge as a group, unit 3 may continue to move, sliding along the edge of D even though it has made contact with D, as 4 is now in melee with D (see FAQ top p9).
  • If 3 is alone, or if 3 charges D in isolation, and makes any contact with D (including corner to corner), then it must stop and conform, which may include displacing 4.
  • Were 3 & 4 unaligned but parallel with D, either unit charging in isolation would displace the other when it conformed, and if they charged as a group they would both stop, being unable to slide along the edge.
    More importantly they would both be ZoCed by D, so neither could slide away to one side before moving.
  • Thus if 3 cannot advance without contacting D, it must be ZoCed by D, so may not slide first to avoid D, even though it may slide past the edge of D under certain circumstances.
    In essence, the above diagram of perfectly aligned units is an extreme case of the more usual ‘unaligned’ units. The only difference being the additional ability to slide past when in contact.


This is merely another ‘edge’ case which the rules do cover, though perhaps not in sufficient detail to satisfy everyone  Wink
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 30, 2019 7:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In my experience aligned units are more common than non-aligned. As two lines approach each other there seems to be a tendency to “line up†to optimise any overlap at the end of the line.

I think this discussion (and a recent one initiated by Alan) has clarified:

1. Units starting within an enemy ZoC are NOT permitted to slide/wheel at the start of their charge (unless explicitly permitted by the ZoC rules).

2. If two units initially contact one enemy, alignment occurs (if required) and cancels the ZoC of the contacted enemy. That leaves the other unit (even if only in contact with front corners) free to either stay in support or slide along the edge of the enemy to continue the charge.

It seems a legitimate tactic to advance one unit ahead if its friends in order to “draw off†incoming enemy units. Of course depending on both side’s troops that risks the advanced unit being isolated and overwhelmed during the enemy’s initial charge. 
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 31, 2019 3:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Steve, the way I believe this (not uncommon) situation is played in ADLG is as follows; the 123 group charges straight ahead, 3 contacts the corner of 7, pays no attention, keeps charging and the whole group contacts 456 perfectly conformed and having 7 as an overlap against it.Because
1. Each unit 123 is already and mutually ZoCed by 456 so that is the most threatening enemy. Unit 3 can't slide in the ZoC of the most threatening enemy to conform with another enemy unit, as you said.
2. I disagree with Ramses II with the definition of Zone Control. Two enemy units that have a corner to corner contact (such as 3 and 7) are not mutually ZoCed. If that was true, then in the clarification which you mention, the 'Charge while sliding along the flank of an enemy unit', example 3 we would see that unit A1 which is already in contact with unit B2 would have no other choice than to conform with B2. But the clarification gives three more options of movement or charge (to another unit. B3 in our example). So no, they are not mutually ZoCed. That's a wrong interpretation of the Definition of ZoC on page 33.
3.A unit in ADLG is allowed to make a charge against an enemy unit and during that charge to contact another enemy unit. This is found on page 36 in CHARGE Definition, 4th dot that says' Apart from when charging, contact with the enemy is only possible only in the following cases:If the unit charges an enemy (including Camp) and HAS TO CONTACT ANOTHER ENEMY BY A SINGLE CORNER OR SLIDE ALONG THE FLANK OR REAR OF THIS NEW ENEMY.The charging unit can choose to conform to this new enemy IF ITS PRIMARY TARGET CHOOSES TO EVADE.' So, in your case since 6 didn't evade, 3 doesn't have to conform on 7.
4. I see no contradiction between the rule and the clarification (FAQ page 9) example 1, because in that example, the unit A1 is not Zoced by B3 and therefore B3 isn't its most threatening enemy and it will not be, during the whole charge movement of A1 till it contacts units B1 and B2. So, by definition of charge, the A1 unit after having contacted the two other units corner to corner and without being in the Zoc of a third unit (which would be qualified as the most threatening), has to conform on one of them (B1, or B2). I believe that if this situation was further analyzed by the DT and we had the A1 Zoced by B3, then they would propably say that A1 must slide along the side edges of B1 and B2 and conform to B3. But that's another situation, not the example 1.
5. ADLG is mainly a rational game system. Smile
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 01, 2020 2:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
harryKonst a écrit:
Steve, the way I believe this (not uncommon) situation is played in ADLG is as follows; the 123 group charges straight ahead, 3 contacts the corner of 7, pays no attention, keeps charging and the whole group contacts 456 perfectly conformed and having 7 as an overlap against it.
Not quite, Harry. The definition of a Charge (p36) says:
    A charge is a move in which a unit contacts an enemy . . . with its front edge (even by a single corner). it stops once contact with the enemy is made
    (my emphasis)
So the group stops on contacting unit 7.


Citation:
Because
1. Each unit 123 is already and mutually ZoCed by 456 so that is the most threatening enemy. Unit 3 can't slide in the ZoC of the most threatening enemy to conform with another enemy unit, as you said.
We agree that the units may not slide at the start of their movement. However Conformation has a different function. P53 2nd para allows a group to conform without reference to ZoC, whilst the example at the top of p54 shows an example of a unit being forced to leave a ZoC through conformation. Consequently the entire group may conform sideways on unit 7.

Citation:
2. I disagree with Ramses II with the definition of Zone Control. Two enemy units that have a corner to corner contact (such as 3 and 7) are not mutually ZoCed. If that was true, then in the clarification which you mention, the 'Charge while sliding along the flank of an enemy unit', example 3 we would see that unit A1 which is already in contact with unit B2 would have no other choice than to conform with B2. But the clarification gives three more options of movement or charge (to another unit. B3 in our example). So no, they are not mutually ZoCed
That example cited in the FAQ is not correct. By definition (p36 Charge) a unit already in contact with an enemy may not ‘charge’ that enemy. 

The problem arises over how we view contact with the corner of an enemy unit. Obviously the unit may slide past physically, but stating that it is considered to be contacting the front of the enemy (and the implications for ZoC etc) is in line with the rest of the rules and may need to be covered by an FAQ and added to V4 when it arrives, whilst also allowing this ‘corner case’ (groan Very Happy) of sliding past if already in contact. 
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 01, 2020 3:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I sometimes end up more confused after asking the question than before.

I agree with Harry that the FAQ example 3 on page 9 means that a unit in corner to corner contact is not ZOCed by the other unit. This is also evident from the fourth paragraph under the Zone of Control Definition on page 33 of the rules.

Ramses says that the FAQ page 9 is incorrect. I am not sure he is correct.

I agree with Ramses that Harry is incorrect in asserting that a unit may move past corner to corner contact to contact another enemy.

I disagree with Ramses when he says "We agree that the units may not slide at the start of their movement." I think that sliding a small amount at the beginning of the charge is necessary "in order to contact the most threatening enemy" per the FAQ and so is allowed.

In the event that the group may not slide, say due to impassable terrain or such, then I feel the corner to corner contact will precipitate conformation and melee with that advanced unit.

I think we can all agree with Ramses when he says " may need to be covered by an FAQ and added to V4 when it arrives" in order to definitively address this issue. One of the strengths and weakenesses of ADLG is that it is not a highly legalistic set of rules. You cannot reason from applying a basic set of principles, there are many situational exceptions and special circumstances addressing individual cases. This can at times lead to ambiguity and an absence of clear agreement on how to handle a given case.
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harryKonst
Archer


Inscrit le: 04 Juil 2017
Messages: 63
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 01, 2020 4:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II, Steve, I wish you a happy new year guys! Take a look at the FAQ page 7. Sliding in a Zone Control. Now Steve you can slide anyway since you still contact the most threatening enemy. So, no problem. Also correct the rule on page 28 of your book.
As for our disagreement with Ramses, I have to insist that all the rules of charging and ZoC must be taken into account, not just the 5 first lines of the definition of charge. So a unit stops when it contacts (even corner to corner ) an enemy unit and conforms BUT on page 36 the DT told as to add the phrase; ' Charge movement must respect all the precepts relative to zone of control.' Having also the paragraph I told you before ( page 36 4th square dot), I believe we have the final decision that we don't have to conform to any unit we touch. Other factors change the result . Maybe I'm wrong. I hope this will be clarified satisfactory in the future version of the system.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 03, 2020 1:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:


Consider the following diag.

3344
...DD
[list][*]If there are two units, one of which is perfectly aligned with an enemy (4 & D), and they charge as a group, unit 3 may continue to move, sliding along the edge of D even though it has made contact with D, as 4 is now in melee with D (see FAQ top p9).


This is an error you have written. I see how you got there but you overlooked a key point.
p 36. Continuing a charge.
"When one or more units of a charging group contact the enemy, the other units of the group who have not contacted an enemy can continue their charge..."
What you refer to as the amendment to p 36, is in reference to "the other units" ie those not in contact.

corner to corner is contact.
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