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Doubt about contact and conformation
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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hochmeister
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2015
Messages: 13
MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 10, 2019 5:00 pm    Sujet du message: Doubt about contact and conformation Répondre en citant
Hello Guys:
Here in Spain we have a doubt about the following situation: (i'm trying to illustrate it with some pictures in this album https://photos.app.goo.gl/BNvwsAaE6SKerGPJ6)
In the initial position, the Cv with its base in Blue (Blue CV) charges as a group with another Cv at its right.

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/viPtfbuf7b3dctqq9[/img]

The Blue Cv is in the ZOC of an enemy unit and contacts it with its front corner
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/d1GDfUCmV1u1sGYs5[/img]

At this point: Can the Blue Cv stay in this position and combat with the support of the cv in its group at its right or the Blue Cv must conform to the enemy, loosing in this case the support?
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/53mth8ZvAoRPJct46[/img]

Many thanks for your responses in advance,

Best regards.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 10, 2019 5:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P52 Charge/definition/1st paragraph

"A charge is a move in which a unit contacts an enemy, which is not already in melee, with its front edge (even by single corner). It stops once contact with the enemy is made. The charging unit must then conform"

So no other option, must conform and not gain the support.
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 10, 2019 9:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
+1

if the 3cavalry on the upside are of the same army, and the cavalry in the middle is of the same army than the blue cavalry, that's the correct move.

if the middle cavalry is an ennemy, then the blue cavalry conform to the cav on the left and the cavalry that was on its right conform to the central cavalry. Neither benefit from support.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 11, 2019 5:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Because the blue cav is within the enemy’s ZoC, it can charge for “free†(i.e. no CP required). 

Judging from the position in the photo, the cav on the right of the blue cav may be able to pay 1CP to make a quarter turn left and move to a support position on the left of the blue cav after it has conformed.
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hochmeister
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2015
Messages: 13
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 11, 2019 7:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you all for your answers. The situation that triggered the discussion was not exactly the same as the case I sent yesterday. I'll try to upload this evening more accurate pictures.
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hochmeister
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2015
Messages: 13
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 11, 2019 7:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi again friends:
the doubt is the same, but the situation is a little different:
The Cv with a red mark are of the same army.
1.- The Red 1 Cv charges as a group with the Red 2 Cv against the Cv that is projecting its ZoC
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yajurf1yVke7c4Vn6[/img]

2.- Can the Red 1 Cv fight in this position with the support of Red 2 Cv as shown in the following image:
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/AfyWXL2cjrypGCLYA[/img]

3.- Or must Red 1 Cv conform to the enemy as shown below, loosing the support:
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/sDzq1mTeyiRbQhdAA[/img]

Thanks a lot.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 11, 2019 10:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It conforms as point 3. Units in contact must conform.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mar Nov 12, 2019 10:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So to be clear, red 2 does not fight (as a support for red 1).

Red 1 must conform as much as possible to its target. It's OK that it can NOT fully conform (the ZoC marker shows another friendly red cav prevents perfect conforming by red 1).
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hochmeister
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2015
Messages: 13
MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 13, 2019 8:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you gentlemen.
So, as far as I can understand, the conformation is obligatory above the rule that says that a unit in support can be displaced only if it is maintained in support position (page 53).
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 13, 2019 8:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting. Not considered that sentence on P53 before. I suppose the question is whether the unit counts as being in a support position before the conformation. I don't know.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 13, 2019 9:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed with Zoltan and others; the group advances into contact then Red#1 conforms as much as possible. (Conformation after moving into contact is mandatory p52), but Red#2 is unable to provide support because of the existing melee. 
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 13, 2019 11:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Interesting. Not considered that sentence on P53 before. I suppose the question is whether the unit counts as being in a support position before the conformation. I don't know.

P53 says you can't displace units already in melee. Thus red 1 can NOT displace friends on its right in order to fully conform. Similarly, red 2 can NOT displace the friends in front of it (who are already in melee) in order to move into a position to support red 1.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 14, 2019 12:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P53 actually says "A unit in support can be displaced only if it remains in the position of support." For me the question is whether a unit can be considered in support if in the position shown in the diagram.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 14, 2019 12:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I believe the only way that a supporting unit can be displaced would be if the unit is already advanced up the flank of the enemy unit, and the required rearward displacement still leaves the unit in support. See diagram below


Units A and B are in melee with enemy unit 1. Unit C is about to charge enemy unit 2.

AAA
AAABBBCCC
111BBBCCC
111
. . . . 222
. . . . 222


After charge

AAABBB
AAABBB
111 . CCC
111 . CCC
. . . . 222
. . . . 222
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 14, 2019 11:51 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That still leaves me unclear whether a group contacting enemy at an angle would not conform if the 'supporting unit' could not conform to a new supporting position.
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