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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 1:58 pm Sujet du message: Pursuit Query |
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A group of impetuous HC routs an enemy unit in their own turn, so pursuit is compulsory. Due to the position of other friendly units the unit in combat can pursue 3cm before being blocked, whilst a supporting unit could only go 2,5cm. P61 para3 says supporting units 'can also advance the same distance provided they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing' - which they are.
So which of the following applies
1. The unit in combat and its support both advance up to the maximum they can, but resulting in advancing different distance
2. Bot units advance 2.5cm, the maximum the support can advance, so both move the same distance
3. The unit in combat advances as far as it can (3cm). The support cannot advance at all because it can't move the same distance.
4. Something else. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 5:30 pm Sujet du message: |
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.
1
Because both units are required to pursue, but in doing so they do not get to interpenetrate friends or push them out of the way.
Because the pursuit is the result of their impetuosity you have no control and each goes as far as it can.
This results in the LC being unable to evade when it is charged next turn and you losing 3 or possibly 4 cohesion points. _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 7:07 pm Sujet du message: |
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daveallen a écrit: | .
1
Because both units are required to pursue, but in doing so they do not get to interpenetrate friends or push them out of the way.
Because the pursuit is the result of their impetuosity you have no control and each goes as far as it can.
This results in the LC being unable to evade when it is charged next turn and you losing 3 or possibly 4 cohesion points. |
But does the inconvenient fact support units are not required to pursue change your view..... ?
FWIW I think all of the alternatives can probably be justified by the RAW, and that there’s almost certainly no deep-Barkerese-style hidden and secret authors intention to be teased out of the words on the page here either.
Instead I suspect this is such an odd and corner case example that were it to actually come up in a game there would probably be a bit of mutual head scratching before I’d suggest to my opponent dicing to see which of the options we’d actually do, and then we’d do that and move on. _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 8:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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madaxeman a écrit: | But does the inconvenient fact support units are not required to pursue change your view..... ?
FWIW I think all of the alternatives can probably be justified by the RAW, and that there’s almost certainly no deep-Barkerese-style hidden and secret authors intention to be teased out of the words on the page here either.
Instead I suspect this is such an odd and corner case example that were it to actually come up in a game there would probably be a bit of mutual head scratching before I’d suggest to my opponent dicing to see which of the options we’d actually do, and then we’d do that and move on. |
Well the rule says:
Citation: | Page 62 Pursuit Paras 1 & 2
When a unit has routed all its opponents in melee, it can perform an advance at the end of the melee phase to pursue a routed unit. A pursuit is a move directly forward of a maximum of one UD ignoring enemy ZoC. Only the phasing player’s units can perform a pursuit.
Pursuit is optional for non-impetuous units. Pursuit is mandatory for impetuous units which must pursue one complete UD except in the following cases... |
I see how this can be interpreted another way, but my reading is that pursuit is compulsory for all impetuous units that can do so. Asked for an opinion I'm happy to back it up with reasons.
Also, it's not that odd for LC to block an evade in this way, so maybe ease up on the "it never happens" schtick _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 8:32 pm Sujet du message: |
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Interesting you assumed the blocking unit was LC. It was ofcourse. But could have been anything else - not that it makes a difference to the issue. |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 8:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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So while the victorious HC Impetuous is obliged to pursue, is it supporting friend (whether impetuous or not) also obliged to pursue? Presumably these are unit by unit decisions? |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 9:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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daveallen a écrit: | madaxeman a écrit: | But does the inconvenient fact support units are not required to pursue change your view..... ?
FWIW I think all of the alternatives can probably be justified by the RAW, and that there’s almost certainly no deep-Barkerese-style hidden and secret authors intention to be teased out of the words on the page here either.
Instead I suspect this is such an odd and corner case example that were it to actually come up in a game there would probably be a bit of mutual head scratching before I’d suggest to my opponent dicing to see which of the options we’d actually do, and then we’d do that and move on. |
Well the rule says:
Citation: | Page 62 Pursuit Paras 1 & 2
When a unit has routed all its opponents in melee, it can perform an advance at the end of the melee phase to pursue a routed unit. A pursuit is a move directly forward of a maximum of one UD ignoring enemy ZoC. Only the phasing player’s units can perform a pursuit.
Pursuit is optional for non-impetuous units. Pursuit is mandatory for impetuous units which must pursue one complete UD except in the following cases... |
I see how this can be interpreted another way, but my reading is that pursuit is compulsory for all impetuous units that can do so. Asked for an opinion I'm happy to back it up with reasons.
Also, it's not that odd for LC to block an evade in this way, so maybe ease up on the "it never happens" schtick |
A unit in overlap has no Melee opponent so has no obligation to pursue, even if impetuous. _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 9:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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madaxeman a écrit: | daveallen a écrit: | madaxeman a écrit: | But does the inconvenient fact support units are not required to pursue change your view..... ?
FWIW I think all of the alternatives can probably be justified by the RAW, and that there’s almost certainly no deep-Barkerese-style hidden and secret authors intention to be teased out of the words on the page here either.
Instead I suspect this is such an odd and corner case example that were it to actually come up in a game there would probably be a bit of mutual head scratching before I’d suggest to my opponent dicing to see which of the options we’d actually do, and then we’d do that and move on. |
Well the rule says:
Citation: | Page 62 Pursuit Paras 1 & 2
When a unit has routed all its opponents in melee, it can perform an advance at the end of the melee phase to pursue a routed unit. A pursuit is a move directly forward of a maximum of one UD ignoring enemy ZoC. Only the phasing player’s units can perform a pursuit.
Pursuit is optional for non-impetuous units. Pursuit is mandatory for impetuous units which must pursue one complete UD except in the following cases... |
I see how this can be interpreted another way, but my reading is that pursuit is compulsory for all impetuous units that can do so. Asked for an opinion I'm happy to back it up with reasons.
Also, it's not that odd for LC to block an evade in this way, so maybe ease up on the "it never happens" schtick |
A unit in overlap has no Melee opponent so has no obligation to pursue, even if impetuous. |
I concur with my learned friend. Only the impetuous unit doing the fighting pursues. Supporting units can choose to do so. However, if an impetuous overlaps chooses to pursue it would have to move a full UD or until it met an obstacle. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 9:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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Agreed with both madaxeman and snowhitsky. |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 9:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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So my option 1. Both units can pursue (one must, the other optional) even though they pursue different distances. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 12:34 am Sujet du message: |
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Yes |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 6:45 am Sujet du message: |
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AlanCutner a écrit: | So my option 1. Both units can pursue (one must, the other optional) even though they pursue different distances. |
If we're agreed that the requirement for impetuous units to pursue doesn't apply to supports then the next paragraph kicks in:
Citation: | Supporting friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing. |
Since pursuit is not a group move the answer is 3 - the victorious unit advances as far as it can and the support stays where it is - because it can't pursue the same distance. _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 10:32 am Sujet du message: |
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Ahh.Â
I think Dave is correct here. The key phrase is “the same distanceâ€.Â
It also means that normal units would stop their pursuit on contact with any enemy, irrespective of which unit made contactÂ
Good spot Dave. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 10:35 am Sujet du message: |
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Oops, answering a question that disappeared.
If it's not a group move then each unit's pursuit is an individual move.
The unit in melee must pursue a full UD (because it's impetuous) or until it is blocked. I think that's not controversial.
Because the supports choose whether or not to pursue (ie it's not compulsory) they must meet the requirement to go the same distance. If they can't meet that requirement then they can't make the pursuit. _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 10:41 am Sujet du message: |
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In which case consider if an impetuous pursuing supporting unit contacts enemy, but the impetuous unit that fought combat doesn't contact new enemy and can therefore move further. Is the supporting unit prevented from making that pursuit move into contact? |
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