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Elephant+foot group charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 9:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
One Hubert used on me where part of a group stopped is a mixed chanrge of heavies and lights against my similairly screened heavies. Heavies and LI screen attached at the front charge similiar enemy. Enemy lights evaded, charging screen stopped short of contact on my heavies (not allowed), and heavies behind carried on through into my heavies.
Hubert’s attack only uses 1CP to move the combined group of LI and HI units.

However it is not without problems. If the enemy LI stand, then those LI leading the charge fight in melee, blocking the HI behind them. Where the two groups are not aligned, the HI would not be able to act as support because the LI would conform preventing further movement. 

Obviously these issues disappear if the player uses 2CP to move the LI and HI separately.  Smile
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 6:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
One Hubert used on me where part of a group stopped is a mixed chanrge of heavies and lights against my similairly screened heavies. Heavies and LI screen attached at the front charge similiar enemy. Enemy lights evaded, charging screen stopped short of contact on my heavies (not allowed), and heavies behind carried on through into my heavies.

This is one I find difficult to understand.

Why charge with both HI and LI?

It seems unnecessary (and unwise) to have charged with the LI since your LI would have had no choice but to evade from the HI alone. Unwise because it leaves his LI in the rout zone of his HI.

It would, however, be a perfectly reasonable approach to take if he was charging with an elephant unit screened by LI.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 9:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The idea behind Hubert’s mixed group charge is that it forces a choice on the opponent. Assuming that the charging units are aligned with the targets, either
  • the enemy LI stand, in which case the flanking HI stop in support, hoping to kill the enemy LI. Or
  • the LI evade, in which case the HI move into contact with the enemy HI, leaving their own LI in the rear.


However, after thinking about this, I am not sure Hubert’s charge was legal; The group that declares the charge must have legitimate targets. Here, since the group has LI in front, the only legitimate targets are other light troops.
That said, the end result would be the same, it would just take an extra turn (group charge against the LI, then HI charge the heavier enemy). 
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 11:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
However, after thinking about this, I am not sure Hubert’s charge was legal; The group that declares the charge must have legitimate targets. Here, since the group has LI in front, the only legitimate targets are other light troops.
That said, the end result would be the same, it would just take an extra turn (group charge against the LI, then HI charge the heavier enemy). 

Surely this is covered by Page 40, 7 - Charge Movement:
Citation:
If a new enemy is in the path of the charge, it can be contacted and can also evade in turn if possible. The procedure is identical except that the charging unit does not perform further movement.
...

If contact with this new enemy is not allowed (i.e. LI on HI) then the unit or group concerned must stop at one UD of the new enemy. The others units can continue their charge.

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Dernière édition par daveallen le Dim Aoû 18, 2019 2:30 pm; édité 1 fois
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 12:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
NO, 

As I said earlier, you must also declare as a target the unit behind the LI, because that unit can be contacted legally, and will be contacted by the minimum move of the elephants. 

As a consequence, although the LI evade, not all targets have evaded, so the group as a whole must continue its charge. 

If the other unit lies outside the minimum charge distance of the elephant, then you may choose to target only the LI. However, if you this, you must not contact that unit. 


Could you please quote the rules that say the above? I can only find (my English translation of the rules in French):

p38: Direction of charge: The unit or group that charges indicate their target and the direction of the charge with a marker"
p40: Charge movement: ...Non impetuous units can stop their charge after at least 1 MU for foot and 2 MU for mounted...If a new enemy is in the direction of the charge, he can be contacted...

As far as I can see in the rules and FAQ, nowhere does it say that everyone within charge distance is a target. The Charge rules don't even mention the target, only the direction of the charge. It is only in the above quoted evade section that targets are mentioned.

This rules as written quite clearly mean that in the case of the original post, the MI can stop charging after 1 MU and the elephant will hit the enemy unit because of its minimum 2 UD move.

Julian
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 5:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Julian. This was effectively what I stated early on in this thread - but didn't receive any support!
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 7:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Julian, so are you saying:

1. Charge “target†is something determined only at the time that a charge is declared?

2. An enemy unit subsequently “uncovered†(and within charge range) by a target evading is not a “target†per se?

3. Non impetuous chargers always have the option NOT to charge into an uncovered enemy unit (despite it being within charge range) as long as it has moved the minimum 1/2UD?
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 9:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
1. Target definition is not a requirement for a charge. Only direction.
2. As above. Not relevant.
3. Yes. That is what the rules say.

Guys. I'm not a guru. I just read the rules and there is no ambiguity in this situation.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 10:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowhitsky a écrit:
Guys. I'm not a guru.


The lady doth protest too much, methinks! Very Happy

P.40 reference under 7 Charge Movement:
Para 1: "A D6 is rolled to adjust its movement distance (see point 5) only if all target units have evaded." The bolded words are RAW; bolding usually implies special meaning.

Para 3: "A charging unit must move...towards its target..." (my emphasis)

Official amendment: "After declaring a charge where the original target evades..." (my emphasis).

So RAW does seem to imply some concept of "target" not just "charge forward that way".
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 18, 2019 11:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In answer to Snowhitsky and AlanCutler
  1. p40, step #7 of the evade process;
    This states that adjusted movement applies "if all target units have evaded".
    The problem here is that the rules did not require the targets to be identified in an earlier step. As a consequence the FAQ was updated at least two versions ago

  2. FAQ p11, Evade adjusted movement distance;
    This requires that "When you declare a charge, you must specify the target and this must be in charge range."

  3. Since the target must be declared, it must obviously be 'valid';
    This is the subject of much of the posts above.
    • P42 exceptions to an uncontrolled charge, and FAQ Charging and the minimum move distance have the same implication:-
      Citation:
      Q: A LI wants to charge an enemy LI. However, if it charges it may come into contact with another heavier enemy that is less than 1 UD from it. Can it charge? If the enemy LI evades, can the charging LI stop before it has travelled the minimum distance of 1 UD?
      A: In this case the LI cannot charge because it may contact a heavy troop and this contact is not allowed.
      This shows that
      • the charger (LI) must consider all 'valid' targets within their minimum charge move of 1UD, in the examples both the enemy LI and enemy HI
      • By implication this applies to all enemy units that could potentially be contacted, even where they are behind a unit that can evade.

  4. As a consequence of #2 and #3 above
    • the players must consider all units in charge range (and direction), including those that could be 'uncovered', and decide whether they are targets of the charge or not.
    • by implication, those that are not 'targets' may not subsequently be contacted by the charge.


  5. p10, Groups of units, 3rd para;
    This states that "units must form a group both at the beginning and at the end of their movement (except when continuing a charge)".
    Therefore:-
    • the group cannot be split half way through the movement, as would be the case if the enemy LI evaded allowing the HI to pass through them).
    • FAQ p8, Charge of a group containing different speed units was added to allow the group to be split up under an adjusted charge move. This would apply if the group consisted HI and Elephants, where the HI could potentially roll low and therefore only move 1UD, slower than the minimum for mounted.
    • Where the group consists of an elephant and MI with the same movement, the minimum charge distance would be 2UDs even though the group contains infantry. This is because the group could legitimately roll 'low' and still satisfy the mounted minimum distance of 2UD.

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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 5:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

[*]p10, Groups of units, 3rd para;
This states that "units must form a group both at the beginning and at the end of their movement (except when continuing a charge)".
Therefore:-
  • the group cannot be split half way through the movement, as would be the case if the enemy LI evaded allowing the HI to pass through them).
  • FAQ p8, Charge of a group containing different speed units was added to allow the group to be split up under an adjusted charge move. This would apply if the group consisted HI and Elephants, where the HI could potentially roll low and therefore only move 1UD, slower than the minimum for mounted.
  • Where the group consists of an elephant and MI with the same movement, the minimum charge distance would be 2UDs even though the group contains infantry. This is because the group could legitimately roll 'low' and still satisfy the mounted minimum distance of 2UD.


Except that LI stopping at 1 ud and heavier units carrying on is "continuing the charge."
Citation:
Page 40, Evade Procedure 7 - Charge movement paragraphs 4 & 6:

If a new enemy is in the path of the charge, it can be contacted and can also evade in turn if possible. The procedure is identical except that the charging unit does not perform further movement.
...

If contact with this new enemy is not allowed (i.e. LI on HI) then the unit or group concerned must stop at one UD of the new enemy. The others units can continue their charge.

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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 6:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That only applies to charges that roll ‘long’ and contact some new enemy that was not a specified target.

Basically you must specify the target(s) of the charge, and HI are not a valid target for LI. Once the the charge is declared, the enemy reacts, and then the entire group moves into contact with a specified target, remaining a group until that contact is made. Continuing the charge only occurs after that contact. 

Don’t forget that the definition of a Charge is “a move in which a unit contacts an enemy, that is not already  in meleeâ€
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 7:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
That only applies to charges that roll ‘long’ and contact some new enemy that was not a specified target.

Basically you must specify the target(s) of the charge, and HI are not a valid target for LI. Once the the charge is declared, the enemy reacts, and then the entire group moves into contact with a specified target, remaining a group until that contact is made. Continuing the charge only occurs after that contact. 

Don’t forget that the definition of a Charge is “a move in which a unit contacts an enemy, that is not already  in meleeâ€


That is not what it says.

It isn't even what it implies.

(By the way, good catch on the first point about having to roll for the VMD because the HI aren't a target of the charge)

Take a hypothetical:

Z
y

a
B

Where a & y are LI 1.5 UD apart, Z is Elephant in a group with y and B is HSwd in a group with a.

Z & y as a group declare a charge on a.

a evades.

Z & y roll a 3 for their variable move.

Citation:
Page 40, Evade Procedure 7 - Charge movement paragraph 1:

A charging unit or group performs its charge straight forward in the direction indicated in point 1. A D6 is rolled to adjust its movement distance (see point 5) only if all target units have evaded.


We now have the situation described in paragraphs 4:

Citation:
If a new enemy is in the path of the charge, it can be contacted and can also evade in turn if possible. The procedure is identical except that the charging unit does not perform further movement.


However, the LI can't charge the HI so paragraph 6 applies:

Citation:
If contact with this new enemy is not allowed (i.e. LI on HI) then the unit or group concerned must stop at one UD of the new enemy. The others units can continue their charge.

There is nothing about rolling long to offer a new target.

    1 You declare the charge on the LI.

    2 It evades.

    3 A new target is revealed.

    4 The LI can't contact the new target and so stops after 1 UD.

    5 The Elephant can contact the new target and does so by continuing its charge.


If the opposing LI were 1 ud or less apart you wouldn't even need to roll for the VMD as the elephant must charge at least 2 ud and thus contact the HI.

An interesting case arises if all the units are in a field which would make it legitimate for the LI to charge the HI.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 7:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand what you are saying, that the group of elephant and LI have a minimum charge of 2UD, so by charging the enemy which evades would uncover a target that the LI could not contact. However the FAQ p11 on Evade adjusted movement specifically prohibits this group charge, because this would put the LI into an illegal contact within it’s minimum charge distance. 

In your example there are three options
  • the LI may charge the enemy LI. If that evades, the LI must move 1UD towards the enemy HI.  
  • the elephant may charge both the enemy LI and HI. If the enemy LI evade, the elephant moves into contact with the HI (as a declared target)
  • the elephant may charge only the enemy LI. If that evades, the elephant must move 2UD towards the enemy HI, but may not contact it since that was not a target.
That said, using an extra CP grants extra options . . .
Very Happy
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 8:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:


[*]p10, Groups of units, 3rd para;
This states that "units must form a group both at the beginning and at the end of their movement (except when continuing a charge)".
Therefore:-
  • the group cannot be split half way through the movement, as would be the case if the enemy LI evaded allowing the HI to pass through them).
  • FAQ p8, Charge of a group containing different speed units was added to allow the group to be split up under an adjusted charge move. This would apply if the group consisted HI and Elephants, where the HI could potentially roll low and therefore only move 1UD, slower than the minimum for mounted.
  • Where the group consists of an elephant and MI with the same movement, the minimum charge distance would be 2UDs even though the group contains infantry. This is because the group could legitimately roll 'low' and still satisfy the mounted minimum distance of 2UD.

[/list]


Aha. This is the rule that sorts this one out. Thanks.

Alan, you can't split your group halfway through your charge unless all enemy units within range are evading.
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