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Elephant+foot group charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 8:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So now you dice for max move and they all stop before contact
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 9:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thats not what the FAQ says.

Either I'm not explaining this adequately or I have a mental block regarding the responses. If anyones around at Britcon in a couple of weeks we can discuss it there, with rules in hand and figures on table.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 9:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Where in the faq are you looking then?
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 10:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
NO, 

As I said earlier, you must also declare as a target the unit behind the LI, because that unit can be contacted legally, and will be contacted by the minimum move of the elephants. 

As a consequence, although the LI evade, not all targets have evaded, so the group as a whole must continue its charge. 

If the other unit lies outside the minimum charge distance of the elephant, then you may choose to target only the LI. However, if you this, you must not contact that unit. 
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 11:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
NO, 

As I said earlier, you must also declare as a target the unit behind the LI, because that unit can be contacted legally, and will be contacted by the minimum move of the elephants. 

As a consequence, although the LI evade, not all targets have evaded, so the group as a whole must continue its charge. 

If the other unit lies outside the minimum charge distance of the elephant, then you may choose to target only the LI. However, if you this, you must not contact that unit. 


The FAQ piece is
Charge of a group containing different speed units
Q: A group consists of elephants and heavy infantry. It charges an enemy that evades and therefore has to adjust its
charge distance. How should the units move?
A: Apply the same principle as that for an evade move : If a group comprises units not advancing at the
same speed, a D6 is launched for each type of unit that does not have the same speed to determine the
charge distance adjustment. Mounted must then make at least 2 UD, Foot 1 UD and all the Impetuous
troops must complete their entire adjusted movement. This can cause a group to split up. In this case one
throws a die for the elephants and another for the HI.

Are you stating that a charge can only contact units specified as targets at the start of the charge, and cannot contact any others revealed by an evade?

I'm really not trying to be awkward. I'm just finding the rules on this very unclear given previous discussions.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 11:16 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
May I point out the obvious.
Elephants and MI are the same speed.
So this faq reference is irrelevant.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 11:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The principle is the same. If my example had included HI instead of MI this FAQ would apply exactly. Are you suggesting HI could drive the LI away but MI cannot?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 12:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alan,
If the target were HI screened by LI, charged by a group of HI and elephant, then there would be no "adjusted pursuit movement", because not all of the targets evade. Consequently the entire group would move into contact and conform.
If both units in 2UD were capable of evading and did so, then the group would need to make an adjusted move, and might be forced to split up if they rolled low.

The point is that, before the group decides to charge, the players evaluate what the potential targets are and which ones can evade (or not). Then the attacker states which unit(s) are the target, and the defender decides which of those target(s) will evade. These evade moves are made, followed by the charge / adjusted pursuit moves of the attacker.

The group may not voluntarily break up before contacting an enemy, but may be split up by circumstances (after contact, or by all targets evading).
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Zoltan
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Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 12:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MI and elephants both charge 3MU.Enemy LI are 2UD away from both MI and Els. Behind the LI is a Chariot that is within 3UD of the MI and Els.

Is everyone agreed that the MI and Els can declare at charge only on the LI and opt NOT to charge into the Chariot? i.e. the charging group is NOT forced to go its full 3UD until it hits the chariot?

Or are (non impetuous) chargers forced to move their full movement distance if a non evading target remains within (normal) charge range?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 12:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The group must contact enemy units that are declared to be a target which do not evade.
Where there are units within charge range that are not declared to be a target, any movement may not contact them (though units must respect ZoC etc).

This is standard manoeuvre between battle lines where there are some LI sandwiched between them. The heavier troops may declare a charge on the enemy LI (but not those behind) allowing the chargers to clear the enemy LI away (and possibly to insert their own, space permitting).
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 1:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Ramses

How I understand it now is
1. Declare charge direction and targets (which is not necessarily all those enemy in charge reach).
2. If all those targets evade the chargers do variable move tests (separately for chargers with different speeds).
3. Even if chargers have enough reach they cannot contact any enemy not declared as a target, presumably unless that enemy wasn't originally within reach and chargers have rolled 'long'.

Correct?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 2:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes

- All 'legitimate' targets within the minimum charge distance must be declared to be targets (and may choose to evade).
- Those up to the maximum charge distance may be declared to be targets, and only those targets may choose to evade.
- Should the charge go long, then units contacted beyond the maximum charge distance may choose to evade if they are able to do so.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 7:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
All good. And now are we all agreed:

If a group charge is declared and targets remain available, all group moves must be the same distance? Either the whole group charges home or the whole group moves the same minimum distance?  

The only time units within a group may move different distances is when all enemy units (whether declared targets or not) within the group’s “normal†charge move evade, and the group consists of units that normally charge different distances e.g. LC with HC?
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 7:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
One Hubert used on me where part of a group stopped is a mixed chanrge of heavies and lights against my similairly screened heavies. Heavies and LI screen attached at the front charge similiar enemy. Enemy lights evaded, charging screen stopped short of contact on my heavies (not allowed), and heavies behind carried on through into my heavies.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 8:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
The only time units within a group may move different distances is when all enemy units (whether declared targets or not) within the group’s “normal†charge move evade, and the group consists of units that normally charge different distances e.g. LC with HC?

Or if contact is made by some units, and others in the group continue forwards up to their max move distance.
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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