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Elephant+foot group charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 1:51 pm    Sujet du message: Elephant+foot group charge Répondre en citant
In a game today we had a group consisting of an elephant and a medium swordsman. The group charged (for 1CP) an enemy light foot that was screening a heavy chariot. The LF evaded as it would be contacted by the swordsmen first. The charging player then wanted to halt the swordsman after 1UD, ie short of the enemy chariot, but let the elephant continue its charge into the chariot. We couldn't find anything in the rules to cover this but just felt it was wrong, so instead it was done as two separate charges - the first to clear the LF, the 2nd being elephant against chariot.

Were we right to disallow the initial charge, and where is it covered in the rules?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 5:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If they charge as a group and fail to make contact then they stop as a group after minimum of 2 UD (elephant is mounted ).
Also if contact made then conform first before evade decision as LI can fight elephant.
See faq for full details of this.
Corner contact is not enough to kill LI in open.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 7:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see this in the FAQ. The nearest I can find is

Charge of a group containing different speed units
Q: A group consists of elephants and heavy infantry. It charges an enemy that evades and therefore has to adjust its
charge distance. How should the units move?
A: Apply the same principle as that for an evade move : If a group comprises units not advancing at the
same speed, a D6 is launched for each type of unit that does not have the same speed to determine the
charge distance adjustment. Mounted must then make at least 2 UD, Foot 1 UD and all the Impetuous
troops must complete their entire adjusted movement. This can cause a group to split up. In this case one
throws a die for the elephants and another for the HI.

This suggests the medium swordsmen CAN stop at 1UD, whilst the El can continue its charge. Because the LI would be contacted by the swordsmen first (if they'd moved more than 1UD) they have to evade, clearing the way for the El to hit the chariot.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 8:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
One only dices for max charge distance if all targets evade so your group charges the chariot together.
Not some do some don't.

Ref to faq. Crossed wires with errata. Not relevant
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 8:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed they don't have to dice for max distance. Unless only the LI are declared as a target which doesn't stop rolling into the chariot anyway.

The more I look at this the more I'm convincing myself the charge can be done with the swordsmen stopping at 1UD and the El hitting the chariot. Unless someone can point me to specific rule/FAq/errata.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 8:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with Dickstik that having declared a group charge the group must contact any valid target within the charge move of the group (in this case 3UD).

It’s only if all valid targets evade that a charging group may potentially get broken up by component units moving different speeds/distances. This could happen:

1. By the (non impetuous) charger electing to move foot their respective minimums of 1UD and mounted 2UD, or

2. All targets evading and the group consisting of units with different movement rates and throwing different variable dice as they chase the evaders.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 8:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Your swordsmen and elephant have the same targets if they charge as a group but you are trying to change them as separate which you have already said costs two cp and done separately.

Can't have your cake and eat it
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 9:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
I agree with Dickstik that having declared a group charge the group must contact any valid target within the charge move of the group (in this case 3UD).

Disagree completely with this. When declaring the charge you also spcify the targets. Its not automatically all those within reach. This has been discussed on the forum before.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 25, 2019 10:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
To try to be clearer heres a simplified diagram.

1.The blue group charges, specifying the LI as the target.
2. If contact were made the MI would conform to the LI (in the actual case there was a small angle to the charge so the infantry would physically contact before the El).
3. So the LI must evade (accepting that if the El had been the conforming unit the LI could have stood).
4. The MI stop after 1UD.
5. The El continues moving to 2UD's and contacts the HCh.
.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 12:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If the elephant is within 2 UD of the chariot how can you justify it not being a target in the first place?

P38 evade procedure, item 1, "the target and the exact path" does not replace p36 first para top right.
In adds to it but "targets" are still up to full move unless interrupted.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 2:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In broad terms, once a ‘group’ declares a charge, that group must stay together until the first contact is made, when some parts of the group may continue their charge movement (until they contact or reach the end of their movement).

Check the definition of groups.

In your example, because the elephant must move 2UD, you must declare both the LI and chariot as targets. When the LI evade, not all targets have evaded, so there is no adjusted movement, and the charge must continue until it hits the target. Here, that means the MI contacting and conforming on the chariot, with the elephant in support. 
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 5:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As Ramses II has said elsewhere, you can't have your cake an eat it! If you declare a group charge you must complete the charge as a group, in this case both infantry and mounted moving the minimum required for mounted (2UD). Alternatively, you need to declare two charges that would enable the MI to drive off the LI, move only 1 UD, and then the Elephants charge the chariot.

To me it looks like a rather gamey engineering exercise to try and drive the LI off with your MI who then move short, then charging the elephant a different distance into the chariot and splitting your group.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 7:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand this is 'gamey'. Thats why I'm trying to understand exactly what the rules are regarding this.

So, the LI are within/at 2UD, so have to be declared as target. No problem there. And if the HCh is beyond 2UD but within 3UD -the HCh does not then have to be declared as a target. Does this change things?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 7:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes
You have option to target LI only or everything up to 3ud .
You still cannot split your group until first contact is made or all targets evade .
So as a group charge, elephant isn't going to make sole contact with chariot
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 26, 2019 7:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
But all targets, ie the LI, have evaded.
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