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When can units evade and in what order?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 1:12 am    Sujet du message: When can units evade and in what order? Répondre en citant
So I had an interesting thing happen at a game at Historicon.

I had a unit of Elephants who wanted to charge Light Cavalry. Behind the light horse, within one UD, were some of their own sides cavalry, at an angle, such that the Light Cavalry could not avoid them by a one UD slide. So their evade move was blocked and they may not evade.

In this particular case the cavalry was located over 3 UD, but within 4 UD of the Elephant.

page 38 specifies a unit may evade if "would be contacted by the enemy's charge" so I think in this case there is no issue. The only way the Cavalry could be contacted if if the Elephants rolled up in pursuit which would only happen if the LH were to evade.


However it got me wondering, if the Cavalry were within 3 UD they would also be a target of the charge. In this case could they elect to evade also? In which case the Light Cavalry would not be blocked if that move were to be performed first.

So the Cavalry could only be a target if the Light Cavalry were to evade, but the Light Cavalry can evade only if the Cavalry evade, and the cavalry only needs to evade if the Light Cavalry can evade.

When multiple units are in a declared charge path may the owning player elect to evade ones behind others?
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 9:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
From what you have written (and without the benefit of a photo or diagram) it sounds as if the Light Cav completely shielded the Heavy Cav from the elephants being able to contact them (the Heavy Cav). In other words, if the Light Cav remained in place it would not be possible for an elephant unit to contact a Heavy Cav unit, as the elephants would first contact the Light Cav.

To be a charge target, an enemy unit must be able to be contacted by the chargers. Usually this is simply a matter of charge distance. But in your example it is complicated by the fact that the Light Cav effectively screen the Heavy Cav from being contacted by the chargers even if the Heavy Cav was within 3 MU of the elephants.

Your example if a kinda Catch-22 unusual case:
- because the Heavy Cav are at an angle the Light Cav can't interpenetrate them to evade
- because the Light Cav can't evade they must receive the elephant charge
- because the Light Cav receive the elephant charge they prevent the Heavy Cav from being a charge target
- because the Heavy Cav are not a charge target they can't evade
- because the Heavy Cav can't evade and are at an angle....

You get the idea.

I'm sure you'll maintain nice parallel lines between overlapping Light Cav and Heavy Cav in your next game!
Very Happy
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 10:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
To be “the target†of the charge, the units must be in range. This is the normal move distance, allowing for initial slide or wheeling and the effects of enemy ZoC etc. All units that may be contacted legitimately within that distance may be declared to be a “targetâ€, so yes, in your example, the cavalry could also be a target, and they could evade first. Zoltan explains the choices and dilemma well, 

Note
  1. Where the two groups were within charge range, I believe you may choose to declare a charge only on the front group. If so, the chargers must stop before contacting the second group. 
  2. A charge is prohibited if the second unit or group would be an illegal contact and is within the minimum charge distance of the chargers.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 11:16 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
But to reiterate, it’s not just that an enemy is within the charge distance of a charger that determines it is a charge target. The charger also has to be able to contact the enemy.

e.g. I have two lines of HI one in front of the other. Both of my lines are within 4 MU of your heavy cav. However, only my front line (nearest your heavy cav) is a charge target as you simply can not contact my second line despite it being within your charge distance of 4 MU.

Of course evading units can “uncover†fresh charge targets. So whether or not a unit is a charge target can be contingent on evade/stand decisions by earlier charge targets.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 12:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Difficult to follow without a diagram. But why can't the light cavalry do the minimum wheel to align with the heavies, and then interpenetrate them?
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 12:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Zoltan and Ramses - despite my lack of a diagram you seem to grasp the issue (and its recursive nature) perfectly.

And it looks like you are also not in complete agreement as to the answer Smile which is exactly my question. Can the Cavalry evade or not?

I had forgotten that the elephants could declare a charge only on the Light Horse, however if the Cavalry would be contacted during the minimum required move of 2UD this would not be an option. But it does answer my question about the rolling up issue.

My personal opinion is that the Cavalry should not evade as Zoltan lays out. The Lights will be contacted first and this prevents the Cavalry from being contacted. But I am not sure so I asked.

And Zoltan and I are saying something "the charger has to be able to contact the enemy" which is not explicit in the rules. It would be equally valid to just say "in range and in the charge path" means one can evade. That is the essential question.

For Alan - step 3 of the evade procedure does not allow for a wheel in order to interpenetrate. I think you are stuck if that is your situation. Many people seem to think you can wheel but I believe that to be a DBX hold over.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 20, 2019 4:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:

For Alan - step 3 of the evade procedure does not allow for a wheel in order to interpenetrate. I think you are stuck if that is your situation. Many people seem to think you can wheel but I believe that to be a DBX hold over.

Interesting, never seen that that interpretation in a game. However re-reading the rules I think you're right. So cavalry within 1UD and at an angle to the LC stops an evade, but not if they're more than 1UD away. Would be nice to get confirmation on that.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 22, 2019 8:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
And Zoltan and I are saying something "the charger has to be able to contact the enemy" which is not explicit in the rules. It would be equally valid to just say "in range and in the charge path" means one can evade. That is the essential question.


My initial feeling is as follows:

RAW p.36 left column, CHARGE Definition:
"A charge is a move in which a unit contacts an enemy, which is not already in melee, with its front edge (even by a single corner). It stops once contact with enemy is made....."

Ipso facto, if the elephant chargers are going to first contact (non evading) light cavalry which are shielding a second line of heavy cavalry, then the heavy cavalry is not able to be contacted and is therefore not a charge target. Thus the heavy cavalry doesn't get the option to make an evade move.

However, I do see your argument that:

1. A charge is a move forward.
2. Everything within charge distance and charge path is a charge target.
3. All charge targets make their stand/evade elections.
4. The charged player gets to chose the order of the elections.
5. Obviously, they elect to evade the heavy cavalry first.
6. This means there is no obstacle within 1 UD preventing the LC from evading.
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 22, 2019 9:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan, I feel the same way you do, based on the same evidence. I think that the Cav should not be able to evade. But thought I would ask.

In the game I was playing I did let the Cav evade. The result was a lovely mutual destruction.

But the question still remained in my mind.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 23, 2019 11:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think Zoltan and I are saying very similar things. 
To be a “target†the unit must be in range and capable of being contacted. 

Where one line of units is screening a second line, in my view the second line can be considered a “target†if the first line can interpenetrate it, as might be the case where Lights are screening Heavier troops. 

The defender declares whether the front line will evade, and if so then whether the second line will evade. (Note, the second line may not evade if the front line does not evade, because they cease to be the target of a charge.) 
Where both lines are evading, I believe the defender chooses the order, so obviously moves the rearmost line first, clearing a path for the evade of the front line

The big question here is whether the front line of units can interpenetrate its friends or not (or otherwise dodge past them). 
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barnstormer
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 27 Aoû 2018
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 23, 2019 7:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am pretty sure you don't get to choose. The person declaring the charge picks the element or group to the front and then if they evade can continue on to contact a new enemy who were behind them who then also have the option to evade. (Page 40 7 - Charge Movement 4th Para).
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 23, 2019 11:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is the point of declaring which units are the target of the charge. The entire process of variable evading and variable pursuit depends on whether the ‘targets’ all evade or not. Once units are declared to be targets, they can choose to evade. 

However should the original targets evade and the pursuers dice high, and the extended pursuit contact other units, these units can then choose to evade as well. 
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 23, 2019 11:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Perhaps there is a further qualification to make particularly in the case of non-impetuous mounted chargers:
- if all possible charge targets are within 2MU (the minimum distance a mounted charger must move) then there is no requirement to declare which enemy units are the target of the charge (as potentially they all are depending on screening/evading etc)
- where one enemy is within 2MU and the other is between 2MU and 3MU, then if for some reason the charger does NOT wish to charge the second unit it can declare it is only charging the first unit - in effect the charger is declaring it will only move its minimum of 2MU.
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barnstormer
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 27 Aoû 2018
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 24, 2019 1:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You don't need to declare all the targets for a charge. The only prerequisite is that one unit in the group can contact an enemy. There is nothing there that states you have to declare all targets etc just the direction of the charge.
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 24, 2019 7:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
barnstormer a écrit:
You don't need to declare all the targets for a charge. The only prerequisite is that one unit in the group can contact an enemy. There is nothing there that states you have to declare all targets etc just the direction of the charge.

In Europe (includes UK) and USA it seems they allow people to declare that they are NOT charging potential enemy units (under permissible conditions etc). Seems a bit gamey to me where you can engineer trapping Light Cavalry in front of heavier cav by declaring that you don't intend to charge the heavier cav.
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