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Furiuos Charge and Armour
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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duck2744
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 03, 2019 9:13 am    Sujet du message: Furiuos Charge and Armour Répondre en citant
Hi

The rules say that that the armour adjustment in combat does not apply in a furious charge.

I can understand that the unit being charged does not get this armour bonus. But does the armour adjustment apply to the furious charger if he was losing the combat?

Thanks

Philip
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 03, 2019 11:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
duck2744 a écrit:
Hi

The rules say that that the armour adjustment in combat does not apply in a furious charge.

I can understand that the unit being charged does not get this armour bonus. But does the armour adjustment apply to the furious charger if he was losing the combat?

Thanks

Philip


The QRS says... "Does not apply against elephants or if enemy has furious charge in first phase." (emphasis added)
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duck2744
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 04, 2019 7:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK thanks.
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Adrian Clarke
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 04, 2019 7:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I was just about to ask this question as well. Spooky!

My angle on this was about an armoured furious charging unit fighting an armoured opponent whose armour effect is negated in the first bound of melee. To clarify, if the furious charging unit loses the combat will it get benefit of better armour in the first round? (Not in subsequent rounds, obviously).

Many thanks

Adrian
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 04, 2019 9:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The saving benefit of armour does not apply in the first round if the unit who beats you has furious charge.  That’s basically it. 

EDIT.  Erm, no it’s not it, I (and others) were Wrong!
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Dernière édition par madaxeman le Sam Juil 06, 2019 11:34 pm; édité 1 fois
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duck2744
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 8:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[u]With regards to.....

My angle on this was about an armoured furious charging unit fighting an armoured opponent whose armour effect is negated in the first bound of melee. To clarify, if the furious charging unit loses the combat will it get benefit of better armour in the first round? (Not in subsequent rounds, obviously).

So from what madaxeman is saying, I understand that....
The armoured furious charging unit does get armour bonus if it losses the combat against a unit that is not a furious charging unit that has lessor armour.

Regards

Philip
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kevinj
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 9:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That's not how I read it. The modifier has is for having better armour than your opponent. The fact that having furious charge cancels this benefit in the first round does not give the furious chargers better armour. So if they lose they don't count the modifier.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 3:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
kevinj a écrit:
That's not how I read it. The modifier has is for having better armour than your opponent. The fact that having furious charge cancels this benefit in the first round does not give the furious chargers better armour. So if they lose they don't count the modifier.


Thats my take as well. You can only ever claim the 'better armour' armour bonus in situations when you lose, and if your opponent has furious charge you can't even claim it in that specific situation. Its also a 'better armour' bonus, not an 'armour' bonus.

Whether you have furious charge or not is irrelevant to being able to claim better armour.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 6:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with the others.

I don’t have the rules to hand, but my understanding is that the question of whether a unit has furious charge only applies when that unit wins a melee. 

Where the unit with furious charge loses a melee, it cannot claim that it’s furious charge negated the enemy unit’s armour, and thus claim to have ‘better armour’ thus saving a hit. 
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 9:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
How do these opinions fit with the rules and faq which both talk about the OPPONENT. The faq pg. 16 specifically says that the the furious charger gets armour benefit if he looses since the other guys armour is ignored, win or loose

Rules
The armour and heavy armour abilities do not apply during the first round of a melee if the OPPONENT has the furious charge ability.

FAQ pg 16
Q : The Armour/Heavy Armour capability doesn’t count during the first round if the opponent has a Furious charge. What happens if the opponent with a Furious charge also has Armour and loses the melee?
A : Then, the opponent’s Armour counts towards the final result, because it’s only the target of the charge that doesn’t get it for the first round. 16
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 05, 2019 11:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Impetuous MC charge armoured legionaries and win the initial melee. The legionaries can NOT claim the heavier armour bonus to mitigate their loss.


Impetuous HC charge armoured legionaries and lose the initial melee (edited). Because the legionaries do not count their armour in the first round of melee against an opponent with furious charge ability, the HC Has heavier armour than the legionaries and therefore can count the heavier armour bonus as a loss mitigant.


Dernière édition par Zoltan le Sam Juil 06, 2019 7:37 am; édité 1 fois
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 06, 2019 7:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
How do these opinions fit with the rules and faq which both talk about the OPPONENT. The faq pg. 16 specifically says that the the furious charger gets armour benefit if he looses since the other guys armour is ignored, win or loose

Rules
The armour and heavy armour abilities do not apply during the first round of a melee if the OPPONENT has the furious charge ability.

FAQ pg 16
Q : The Armour/Heavy Armour capability doesn’t count during the first round if the opponent has a Furious charge. What happens if the opponent with a Furious charge also has Armour and loses the melee?
A : Then, the opponent’s Armour counts towards the final result, because it’s only the target of the charge that doesn’t get it for the first round. 16


Hmmmm.  That is different to how we’ve all understood it previously, isn’t it?  

The wording is still a bit clunky, however if that’s not a mistranslation it might be better to change the wording on the FAQ to something like “All troops are always treated as having no armour in the first round of Melee against opponents with Furious Chargeâ€
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 06, 2019 11:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
V4 will merge the FAQ with the text, and may include other changes suggested in the V4 thread.

Evidently this is one of the bits need to be checked / verified in that process. 
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 06, 2019 7:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Adrian Clarke a écrit:
I was just about to ask this question as well. Spooky!

. To clarify, if the furious charging unit loses the combat will it get benefit of better armour in the first round? (Not in subsequent rounds, obviously).

Many thanks

Adrian

Yes .
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