Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
Conforming question again
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
Auteur Message
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 1:37 pm    Sujet du message: Conforming question again Répondre en citant
Slight disagreement at the club last week. I'm sure this has already been asked but can't find it.

1. Blue group charges the enemy red group, with unit W entering unit A's ZOC before any others. Unit W then contacts unit A.
2. The blue group does a wheel to conform resulting in the second diagram. Unit W is now mostly in contact with unit B.
3. So does the group conform such that W fights B, or does it keep to the original contact (and initial most threatening enemy) and conform to unit A.


Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mad Max
Centurion


Inscrit le: 17 Fév 2014
Messages: 469
Localisation: Béthune
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 2:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
W has to conform to A since w entered a's zoc
_________________
Maxime, Ch'tis Stratège de l'Artois
pas vraiment ch'ti, pas vraiment stratège, pas vraiment amateur d'art non plus
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 5:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The movement that led to your conform violated the FAQ (p. 5 or so) on conforming in a ZOC.

"When a unit or group is in or enters an enemy ZoC (including a conformation page 52), the only
permitted movement must be made with respect to the most threatening enemy unit."

The move made caused you to become less aligned with the most threatening unit and therefore was illegal.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 6:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks, the answers confirm my view. In effect the unit that has to be contacted is the first one that becomes a threatening unit. The intermediate positions reached via the slide/wheel to conform are irrelavent.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 6:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Also worth looking at bottom of p. 6 for a sort of partial exception, though also relevant because of this

"If A1 wishes to engage in melee, it must charge B2 because it may not slide in the ZoC of an enemy anyway."

No slides in ZOC (which can be seen from previous parts of FAQ.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 23, 2019 10:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It is worth noting that, because the charge is a straight line after the initial direction is chosen, the players have to take into account which unit(s) will be "the most threatening" at the end of that movement.

Using this example, it would be illegal for the group to aim their charge with the intention of getting W to hit B by moving through the ZoC of A
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 9:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I had exactly this situation at the Worlds in Rome and asked the umpire for a ruling. He ruled (using your example) that despite W’s initial contact with A, my group had to conform by the shortest distance. Thus W conformed with B etc etc.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 2:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
I had exactly this situation at the Worlds in Rome and asked the umpire for a ruling. He ruled (using your example) that despite W’s initial contact with A, my group had to conform by the shortest distance. Thus W conformed with B etc etc.

This was my opponents argument.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 6:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
I had exactly this situation at the Worlds in Rome and asked the umpire for a ruling. He ruled (using your example) that despite W’s initial contact with A, my group had to conform by the shortest distance. Thus W conformed with B etc etc.


I hope it wasn't me! This is a natural error. I think we all too often look at contact or after a partial conform to finish the rest.

But the rules on p52 as amended are perfectly clear. "the alignment is made corner to the front corner of the most menacing enemy at the moment of entry into a ZOC"

One of the challenge of answering a question is, are you actually being asked the wrong question which leads to answering a question that is not actually the critical one.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 10:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Dan - no it wasn’t you.

So the key question seems to be: what takes precedence?

1. You must conform to all enemy units contacted

2. You must conform by the shortest distance even if this means NOT conforming with an enemy unit initially contacted
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 2:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The charge move as executed was illegal - creating the apparently anomalous conform situation.

The trick is to go back before anything was moved and execute a legal charge the respects the ZOC.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 2:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
When charging, the group must move such that it ends up complying with the “most threatening†rules. (Here, this means that W will consider A as it’s most threatening unit and must move with respect to that unit).

When contact is made, other units may continue forwards until further contacts are made. Then they all conform “by sliding and wheeling†with respect to the initial contact, and that unit conforms with the unit it hit. 

This does have the potential to miss out intervening enemy, but common sense should prevail here; so W conforms on A and the rest of the charging group should conform on W (assuming these units have also made contact).

Dan is correct that the rules and FAQ shows this process quite clearly. 
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
kevinj
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
Messages: 323
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 8:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think that this is now clear, however there's an additional scenario that I'm unsure of. If there was another blue unit (V) to the left of W and the group charges the Red line, what happens? Clearly V would enter A's ZoC first and would contact it. Logically (and following the diagram on P53) the rest of the group would continue and W would conform to B and so on down the line. However, this contradicts the clarification regarding "most threatening" as clearly W would enter A's ZoC first. So which takes precedence here?
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
plefebvre
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 30 Déc 2009
Messages: 1164
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 9:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Slight disagreement at the club last week. I'm sure this has already been asked but can't find it.

1. Blue group charges the enemy red group, with unit W entering unit A's ZOC before any others. Unit W then contacts unit A.
2. The blue group does a wheel to conform resulting in the second diagram. Unit W is now mostly in contact with unit B.
3. So does the group conform such that W fights B, or does it keep to the original contact (and initial most threatening enemy) and conform to unit A.




W must conform against A , X against B , and so on.

See the amendment to the rule page 52 conformation.

Technical board / rule committee
_________________
patrick lefebvre

"sic transit gloria mundi"
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 3:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
kevinj a écrit:
I think that this is now clear, however there's an additional scenario that I'm unsure of. If there was another blue unit (V) to the left of W and the group charges the Red line, what happens? Clearly V would enter A's ZoC first and would contact it. Logically (and following the diagram on P53) the rest of the group would continue and W would conform to B and so on down the line. However, this contradicts the clarification regarding "most threatening" as clearly W would enter A's ZoC first. So which takes precedence here?


So your question is, I think, how is it adjudicated when in a charge two units would because of the ZOC rules be required to conform to the same target unit?

If that is right....


The angle of the charge resolves this. The two units are a group. the group conforms starting at the point of contact. So I think the diagram would have your new unit (V) as the first unit to contact. Therefore it would be the priority to conform if distance permitted.

Also note the nature of the 1 UD to line up may mean if the ZOC angles permit (hard to tell distance here) that it is more accurate to wheel some then charge to conform all units.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum